nuns without habits and priests without clerics

[dandy777]

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v359/LausTibiChriste/priestsforever.jpg[/img]

Is this the kind of collar we were talking about? I guess this is the typical Anglican collar, right? Even though I know some Catholics who wear it that way especially in England.

[friarMatt]

As aa religious, we have and wear the habit.

The day we recieved it we were told "It is a habit, nothing more, nothing less. Give it the respect it deserves, though don't pin all your hope and salvation in it. My prayer for you is that the habit you wear becomes the habit of your heart."

I wear it for community prayers and meals, school and ministry. This year I am working as a chaplain in a hospital, i have gotten all sorts of reactions including "Are you a Jedi?" "Are you the angel of death?" my favorite was "Fabulious costumes" (because it was halloween.)


hehe

in Christ and Mary,
fr. Matt

[dandy777]

lol..... a Jedi?!?!?!

Halloween is not very popular in Europe yet I remember that when I was young many people used to dress up as priests and nuns during Carnival. It is nowadays illegal at least in my country.... cos it is considered as mockery and you get fined if you are caught wearing these costumes. Anyway, it was funny for those who are able to laugh at themselves.

I did some research about the collar and look what I found....

[b]Origin:[/b] "Originally," says the Reverend Henry McCloud in his book Clerical Dress and Insignia of the Roman Catholic Church, the Roman collar "was nothing else than the shirt collar turned down over the cleric's everyday common dress in compliance with a fashion that began toward the end of the sixteenth century. For when the laity began to turn down their collars, the clergy also took up the mode."

... But that's only half the story. The clergy also adopted the fad of lining their collars with fancy lace and needlework, which made them more beautiful but also more difficult to clean. So a third custom arose: covering the collar with a changeable sleeve of white linen to protect it from dirt. The modest-minded Pope Urban VIII banned the use of lace in 1624 ... but he didn't ban the protective sleeve. "Thus," McCloud says, "the narrow band of white linen used to protect the collar in the course of a few centuries became what is known today as the Roman collar."

In his essay on Why A Priest Should Wear His Roman collar, Charles M. Mangan states: "The Roman collar makes the priest available for the Sacraments (baptism, confirmation, eucharist, holy orders, matrimony, penance), especially Confession and the Anointing of the Sick (last rites), and for crisis situations."

The Roman collar was a Catholic invention. The clerics mentioned in the above are Catholic ones. That is why McCloud entitled his book "Clerical Dress and Insignia of the Roman Catholic Church." There is absolutely no way the Roman collar was a style many different religious groups used. Those making this argument cannot produce the proof.

[url="http://jesus-messiah.com/html/catholic-collar.html"]http://jesus-messiah.com/html/catholic-collar.html[/url]

Pretty interesting, eh?

[friarMatt]

ya a jedi.....when you look at my profile you will see a pic of me in habit...and it works...

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='dandy777' date='Jan 15 2006, 01:57 PM']Thanks for that clarification. I knew there was something different in the collar yet I never noticed if the cassock is single or double breasted. 
Well, I think I would feel very very awkward with a woman priest. I am totally against women being ordained as priests whether they be Catholic or Protestant. I have nothing against women who preach as long as they remain lay people, though.  Joyce Meyer is a non-Catholic yet she is a good preacher. But to have women celebrating mass or worse confessing is totally out of question for me. No matter how discriminatory it sounds. 
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Discriminatory? No sounds fine to me

[dandy777]

[quote name='friarMatt' date='Jan 15 2006, 05:29 PM']ya a jedi.....when you look at my profile you will see a pic of me in habit...and it works...
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cool ... I saw your pic ... it seems to be a very nice place. Is that your convent? You are just a year older than I am I have friends your age who became Capuchins. Actually they took their vows this year.

[dandy777]

[quote name='Myles' date='Jan 15 2006, 05:29 PM']Discriminatory? No sounds fine to me 
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:

[ruso]

[quote name='friarMatt' date='Jan 15 2006, 05:29 PM']ya a jedi.....when you look at my profile you will see a pic of me in habit...and it works...
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My cousin is friar and his congregation does not use habits, I suppose that each one decides if to take or no.
Although I believe that there is to take the habits, each monk or friar must be free to do it, "the habit does not make the friar", It is old saying Spanish.

[son_of_angels]

[quote]
Well, I think I would feel very very awkward with a woman priest. I am totally against women being ordained as priests whether they be Catholic or Protestant. I have nothing against women who preach as long as they remain lay people, though. Joyce Meyer is a non-Catholic yet she is a good preacher. But to have women celebrating mass or worse confessing is totally out of question for me. No matter how discriminatory it sounds. 

[/quote]

I heartily disagree with this statement. First, Joyce Meyer is NOT a good preacher. I have watched her at various times. To call her a good preacher is to compare her with actually good preachers (Ss. Augustine and Bernard, Francis, etc.) and she has not the content nor the message to even be a gleaming ray from their risplendence. Her preaching style is mean, popular, and, like most evangelical preachers, commercial.

On the other hand, no, women cannot and should not be priests. However, I also disagree with (in a doctrinal, religious "de fide" sort of way) all invalid ordinations, because they are basically Satan's lies perpetuated in God's truths. This includes Protestant ordinations of BOTH men and women. I refuse to distinguish them, except in ecumenical settings (since sects like the Anglican and Lutheran sects have the possibility of becoming Catholic priests), but other than that, the fact that their heresy and invalidity leads them to ordain women is not surprising nor appalling to me.

I also understand that women can be good pastors/preachers, but they should do so in a way that does not confuse the Holy Order/Hierarchical-based Divine Constitution of the Church. The same goes for laymen and people without Holy Orders (though men should take the leadership in their families, and thus, presumably, among the church). But what is it to me if, because of their material heresy, some glimmer of good Catholic and moral truth comes out in these separated brethren by either woman or man? It is nothing, like all their church functions, except what I can glean from it for my own faith. Hence, I value her pastoral leadership, but the ACTUAL value of it is expressed in the True Church. That is why I neither oppose nor accept her prior pastoral responsibility except in the broad sense of eschewing both un-ordained pastors specifically, and invalid ordinations in general...

[cappie]

[quote name='friarMatt' date='Jan 16 2006, 03:23 AM']As aa religious, we have and wear the habit.

The day we recieved it we were told "It is a habit, nothing more, nothing less. Give it the respect it deserves, though don't pin all your hope and salvation in it. My prayer for you is that the habit you wear becomes the habit of your heart."

I wear it for community prayers and meals, school and ministry. This year I am working as a chaplain in a hospital, i have gotten all sorts of reactions including "Are you a Jedi?" "Are you the angel of death?" my favorite was "Fabulious costumes" (because it was halloween.)
hehe

in Christ and Mary,
fr. Matt
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Yep, what he says . Us Capuchins wear our habits most of the time, but it really has no bearing what you wear it's what you are that counts. I've known some pretty petty priests that always wore their clericals.

[magnificat]

[quote name='StMichael' date='Jan 14 2006, 01:40 PM']As for nuns. Well my old parish the nuns wear full habits (white gowns with black habits) and my current parish, nothing. Street clothes.

You can thank Vatican II for this as nuns were given the option not to help the poor or act as teachers and opt for other work as well as to wear the modern day garments.

Honestly, to see a nun with a handbag and business suit/ dress makes it appear as though nuns have disappeared.

Sad.
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First off, (not that I think you meant to imply this), but I don't think it's a bad thing that sisters/nuns work in areas besides teaching or helping the poor or the contemplative life. There is a need for people to bring Christ to the world in various fields besides the "traditional" apostolates.

My personal preference is for sisters who wear habits and while there is definately a strong correlation between orthodoxy & whether the order is habited, it's not a 100% relationship. Case in point: the Apostles of the Interior Life. These sisters are VERY orthodox but do not where habits. Instead they dress simply in "normal" clothes because their primary apostolate is evangelization & spritual direction on secular college campuses. So while this discussion of clerics & habits is interesting, let it not prejudice you to any person based on clothing. There are priests & sisters who are orthodox & working in wonderful ways to bring Christ to other's without the "standard clothing" and others who do a disservice to to the cleric/habit, though they may wear it.

Edited January 15, 2006 by magnificat

[Paladin D]

I agree with [b]Theologian In Training[/b], as long as you're not trying to hide your idenity in public, and wear your clerical uniform when it's appropiate, then you shouldn't feel guilty wearing casual clothes. For example, if I become a priest, I would do a mixture of both. Why? Wearing a pair of jeans with a fleece can be comfortable, and it would get boring wearing the same exact thing every single day. Also, what if it was extremely hot outside? Wearing black is torture!!!

Of course, just because you wear casual clothes doesn't mean you can't have your collar on, so people can tell if you're a priest or not.

Hey Theo, I just thought of something. Have you ever wore a sports cap while wearing your clerical uniform in public? That's a mixture of casual and dress.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jan 16 2006, 12:00 PM']Hey Theo, I just thought of something.  Have you ever wore a sports cap while wearing your clerical uniform in public?  That's a mixture of casual and dress.
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Nope, but there are a few guys here who have. It was definitely something interesting to see

God Bless

[friarMatt]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jan 16 2006, 10:00 AM']I agree with [b]Theologian In Training[/b], as long as you're not trying to hide your idenity in public, and wear your clerical uniform when it's appropiate, then you shouldn't feel guilty wearing casual clothes.  For example, if I become a priest, I would do a mixture of both.  Why?  Wearing a pair of jeans with a fleece can be comfortable, and it would get boring wearing the same exact thing every single day.  Also, what if it was extremely hot outside?  Wearing black is torture!!!

Of course, just because you wear casual clothes doesn't mean you can't have your collar on, so people can tell if you're a priest or not. 

Hey Theo, I just thought of something.  Have you ever wore a sports cap while wearing your clerical uniform in public?  That's a mixture of casual and dress.
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Red Sox cap with the habit often! Some of my brothers thinks its looks bad, and i say "ppphhhhbbllllltttttttttttt! "

[Mercy me]

[quote name='friarMatt' date='Jan 16 2006, 04:49 PM']Red Sox cap with the habit often! Some of my brothers thinks its looks bad, and i say "ppphhhhbbllllltttttttttttt! "
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A Red Sox hat!?!? I pray for the converstion of those poor Red Sox fans. :

[friarMatt]

thank you for prayers for good and holy conversation, if they were for conversion...well i reckon those aren't necesary :-)

[dandy777]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Jan 15 2006, 07:54 PM']I heartily disagree with this statement. First, Joyce Meyer is NOT a good preacher. I have watched her at various times.  To call her a good preacher is to compare her with actually good preachers (Ss. Augustine and Bernard, Francis, etc.) and she has not the content nor the message to even be a gleaming ray from their risplendence.  Her preaching style is mean, popular, and, like most evangelical preachers, commercial.[/quote]

I don't think you have the right to write such sweeping statements. Maybe Joyce Meyer is not appealing to you and she doesn't preach the way a "good" preacher according to your standards should. I like the way she preaches and I find her examples and teachings very practical and down-to-earth especially where relationships are concerned.

You have every right not to like her but that doesn't mean she is not good. Remember that there are different ways of preaching and teaching. Even the apostles and disciples had their own different ways obviously moulded by their own individual personality and spiritual experience.

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Jan 15 2006, 07:54 PM']On the other hand, no, women cannot and should not be priests.[/quote]

If you read my post well, I never stated otherwise.

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Jan 15 2006, 07:54 PM']I also understand that women can be good pastors/preachers, but they should do so in a way that does not confuse the Holy Order/Hierarchical-based Divine Constitution of the Church.  The same goes for laymen and people without Holy Orders ([b]though men should take the leadership in their families[/b], and thus, presumably, among the church).[/quote]

Hello??? Are you living in 2006? Men and women are equal and should have equal leadership in their family. Both have their roles but that doesn't mean that men are leaders and women, nice dumb ornaments

Edited January 17, 2006 by dandy777

[qfnol31]

[quote]Hello??? Are you living in 2006? Men and women are equal and should have equal leadership in their family. Both have their roles but that doesn't mean that men are leaders and women, nice dumb ornaments :mad:[/quote]

I don't think that men and women are the same, nor do I think they should fulfill the same roles.

Just because we live in 2006 doesn't meant that men and women have changed over the last 7000 years or so. I think the man should have the leadership role in the house and the woman nurture.

I can't be very nurturing and refuse to marry someone who cannot be. I want a complementary wife, not one who's the same as me.

[dandy777]

[quote name='Mercy me' date='Jan 17 2006, 03:39 AM']A Red Sox hat!?!?  I pray for the converstion of those poor Red Sox fans.   :
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Edited January 17, 2006 by dandy777

[dandy777]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 17 2006, 08:01 PM']I don't think that men and women are the same, nor do I think they should fulfill the same roles.[/quote]

I agree.

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 17 2006, 08:01 PM']Just because we live in 2006 doesn't meant that men and women have changed over the last 7000 years or so.  I think the man should have the leadership role in the house and the woman nurture.[/quote]

I am sorry I totally disagree. By nature, men and women have different roles. Fine that is something I accept yet that doesn't mean that the man should take the leadership. I believe that a healthy relationship and marriage is build on equal leadership. Both man and woman have to make decisions [b]together[/b] as a couple. Obviously there will be some areas where one of the two is more knowledgable because of his/her personality or disposition but that has absolutely nothing to do with sex.

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 17 2006, 08:01 PM']I can't be very nurturing and refuse to marry someone who cannot be.    I want a complementary wife, not one who's the same as me. 
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Just as you found fullfillment in your marriage this way, there are other couples who are the other way round and they still compliment one another and have a fulfilled relationship. Let us not put everything in pigeon holes but let us be sensitive to other realities as well.