Sojourner Posted January 16, 2006 Posted January 16, 2006 The leftist publication [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/15/magazine/15wage.html?adxnnl=1&pagewanted=all&adxnnlx=1137351607-3yn4qlXdmT32ISX/RXA6Mw"]the New York Times[/url] has an article on movements to establish a living wage.
Quietfire Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 (edited) Without reading it... It'll never be enough. The cost of living will always be higher than the living wage. Just get over it and live the best life you can with what the Good Lord gives ya, ya know? Gosh, I love your avatar Sojourner. That is soooo cool. Edited January 17, 2006 by Quietfire
qfnol31 Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 Minimum wages are not necessarily the best way to go about helping the poor. In fact, it normally creates a shortage of jobs available to those who need work. It works the same way a price floor for a product does. Less people are willing/are able to offer jobs with higher wages (especially restaurants). That said, it also drives up costs and igitur the cost of living in general.
journeyman Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 I think that issue was addressed in the article . . . not that it was resolved a "living" wage depends on the "cost" of what is necessary to live . . . so "rent and price controls" could lower the levels needed for a living wage . . . if that solution didn't run afoul of other "rights"
qfnol31 Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 If you have a cap on the price for things, then there will be a smaller supply of housing and things.
Socrates Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 16 2006, 05:56 PM']Minimum wages are not necessarily the best way to go about helping the poor. In fact, it normally creates a shortage of jobs available to those who need work. It works the same way a price floor for a product does. Less people are willing/are able to offer jobs with higher wages (especially restaurants). That said, it also drives up costs and igitur the cost of living in general. [right][snapback]858177[/snapback][/right] [/quote] True. Artificially elevated wages mean that employers can afford to hire fewer workers, which leads to more people being unemployed, which in turn weakens the economy as a whole, and leads to lower actual wages and more people in poverty. This is explained in depth in [url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0739110365/sr=1-1/qid=1137114440/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2323353-4496057?%5Fencoding=UTF8"][i]The Church and The Market[/i], by Thomas E. Woods[/url]
jezic Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 i think the problem might be a lot more complicated than just wages. THinking about it, if 5.15 was worth something, it woudln't be a problem at all, but that doesn't buy much when you have a family to support. The real thing is that inflation has been crazy which has made 5 dollars a very small amount. It is interesting to note that most of the money in america is held by like 1 or 2 percent of the population.
qfnol31 Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 I only know one person who makes minimum wage, and believe me, he doesn't need that much! It is kinda sad that a few people have most of the money, I agree. I actually know many people who can support themselves off of a $7-an-hour wage.
jezic Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 Here where i live 7 isn't so bad, but in some places the rapid housing development of suburbs/etc. has sent costs through the roof. The whole gasoline mess has to hurt people who only make this much money. As the article states though a lot of it is probably immigrant/college student jobs. Some places also keep the wages right above minimum (say at like 550 now) so that they can avoid part of the controversy but still really pay their people nothing.
Carrie Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 A $7 an hour wage wouldn't even cover rent here. I think people are entitled to earn a living wage. Making minimum wage leaves people living below the poverty line. Why shouldn't men and women who work hard earn enough money to feed their families?
track2004 Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 We have a living wage here in Bloomington, IN... or I think they passed it. It's a nice idea, but it seems like it'd just drive the cost of everything else up. It's the same debate when they raise minimum wage basically. Also I think a lot of it depends on what you need to get by. I mean living in a hovel and eating PB&J every day isn't fun, but I bet you can do it in most medium sized cities on $5.15 if you work basically 40 hours a week. The problems come with commuting and getting sick.
rkwright Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 16 2006, 06:56 PM']Minimum wages are not necessarily the best way to go about helping the poor. In fact, it normally creates a shortage of jobs available to those who need work. It works the same way a price floor for a product does. Less people are willing/are able to offer jobs with higher wages (especially restaurants). That said, it also drives up costs and igitur the cost of living in general. [right][snapback]858177[/snapback][/right] [/quote] the opposite is also true... a completely free market with an abundant supply of labor, put the companies in charge. In cutting costs they can lower it to nearly nothing. People have to work, so the labor is pretty inelastic, which leaves the price pretty much in the companies demand curve...
God the Father Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 Pardon my ignorance.....what is a living wage?
Azriel Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 [quote name='Carrie' date='Jan 17 2006, 12:45 PM']A $7 an hour wage wouldn't even cover rent here. I think people are entitled to earn a living wage. Making minimum wage leaves people living below the poverty line. Why shouldn't men and women who work hard earn enough money to feed their families? [right][snapback]858845[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'm not even going to begin to say I have all the answers, but a two parent household with a child, or more, with a father working for minimum wage, and a mother staying home to raise their children - they would not be able to live on 5.15 an hour - let alone 7. And I'm not talking having lots of extra luxuries either. Coupled with the fact that most minimum wage jobs do not include health insurance, and you are looking at the kiss of death for most families. I know this, because I lived it. My dad worked amazingly hard for very little - and there were times when it wasn't enough. Fortunately, God always provided.
jasJis Posted January 18, 2006 Posted January 18, 2006 I don't understand why society must provide a 'living wage' for tasks so menial and unskilled? According to the article, less than 3% of the US workers attempt to support themselves and/or a family at minimum wage. I'm dead set against an artifical 'living wage' because it doesn't really address the problem of endemic poverty. I've hired unskilled workers for decades and my father's been involved in St. Vincent De Paul for 50+ years. What is needed is access to training, temporary rent subsidies, transportation assistance, subsidized day care, and subsidized basic medical care. People need assistance to take advantage of the opportunities to succeed. Most people (not all) in low paying jobs are under-acheivers and only work enough to get food and pay rent and don't apply themselves. This is based on my experience with the many hundreds of people I've hired over the years. You don't need a college education to make $50 to $80 grand a year with full benefits, you need a work ethic.
peacenluvbaby Posted January 18, 2006 Posted January 18, 2006 Do menial tasks need to be done? YES Does someone have to do them? YES So why should that person make a wage so low that he/she cannot support him/herself and his/her family??? Because we dont want to pay the higher wage, but we want that job done...oh that sounds fair.... [color=green]Also, as far as the DOOM and GLOOMers that say a higher minimum wage will create unemployment - Look at Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Ireland!!!!! These countries have very high wages, good government benefits, employee mobility, child care, unemployment insurance, high education (free through college) and All of them have unemployment rates similar to or lower than the US, yet their standard of living, as ranked by the UN is as high or higher than that of the US though all are in/around the top 10!!! : [/color] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Human_Development_Index#Top_thirty_countries ) There is something to be said for giving skilled laborers good wages - commensurate with their skills - yet, we cannot leave out other "unskilled" laborers whose jobs are also necessary/beneficial to the community. We all need to live and it is our right to have a decent standard of living regardless of our "skills." Just keep shopping at WalMart, never minding that their employees often are on Medicaid/Welfare because the wages are so low!!!!!!! Do the math!!! California minimum wage is "high" $7.25/hour. So if you work in Los Angeles for 35 hours per week at $7.25 (35 hours because employers dont want to have to give you insurance so they keep you as part time) you make - $253.75/week so $1015/month. So lets assume that this poor person has a partner (wife/husband) and 2 children...If both work they now make 2030/month So they need: 2 Bedroom Apt $1100 (that is in a very bad neighborhood - I used to pay $700 for a 1 bedroom in the ghetto) Utilities (not using a/c or other "luxuries") $100 Car or Bus Passes ($52 * 4 people) $208 Total: $1408 so far So they have $600 left, but wait, the government will deduct Social Security and Medicare from each pay check...so lets say they have $500 left. [color=purple]With this $500 they still need to worry about: Health Insurance/Medicine/Dental??? FOOD ??? Clothing??? Anything "fun" they ever want to do. Do you think you could feed and clothe 4 people on $500 per month? and I guess hope they never get sick or anything because you have no insurance.... [/color]:bugeyes: Peace people!
desertwoman Posted January 18, 2006 Posted January 18, 2006 [quote name='jasJis' date='Jan 18 2006, 05:45 AM']I don't understand why society must provide a 'living wage' for tasks so menial and unskilled? According to the article, less than 3% of the US workers attempt to support themselves and/or a family at minimum wage. I'm dead set against an artifical 'living wage' because it doesn't really address the problem of endemic poverty. I've hired unskilled workers for decades and my father's been involved in St. Vincent De Paul for 50+ years. What is needed is access to training, temporary rent subsidies, transportation assistance, subsidized day care, and subsidized basic medical care. People need assistance to take advantage of the opportunities to succeed. [b]Most people (not all) in low paying jobs are under-acheivers and only work enough to get food and pay rent and don't apply themselves. [/b] This is based on my experience with the many hundreds of people I've hired over the years. You don't need a college education to make $50 to $80 grand a year with full benefits, you need a work ethic. [right][snapback]859566[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I grasp what you are saying JasJis and I agree with you, but I also see a lack of passion. That they are satisfied with surviving instead of living because their spirits are broken. Have you ever looked into their faces and see the blankness there... that this is not where they are suppose to be and it depresses them greatly. They don't want to be there, but they know that they have to be there to put food on the table and to keep a roof over their heads. It hurts for I'm in that same position. There is no fire, no drive in this job. I'm doing it to the best of my ability for I know I have bills to pay, but to call this job a career that I love to go to and do... no. The sense that he/she has failed and is left with a job that he/she doesn't like but does because the money is needed leeds to drones. I'll do what you tell me to do because you are my boss... period. I take no joy into what I do, I"m here for the check to feed myself and my family. "For once you break a man's spirit, then you truly destroy him"- An
peacenluvbaby Posted January 18, 2006 Posted January 18, 2006 Dont insult low wage earners. Just because you were born into a family that values education, that could afford to feed you well and provide you with a healthy childhood. Lucky You! Underachievers...please!!!!!!! How unchristian! Most low wage earners entered the work force young, often to help their families survive, and because they had jobs, they could not finish an education. There is also the question of the poor state of educational facilities in low income neighborhood. I've tutored seniors in high school who were smart but couldnt spell because they had had lousy teachers in overcrowded schools, no or few extracurriculars, no one on one attention..... Oh yeah...the POOR WANT TO BE POOR...RIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!! That's a cheap excuse of people who have no interest in helping the poor and are so scared that they could become poor that they cling tightly to the measly money bag in their fist. I apologize for the venom...It's not personal. Peace out!
Azriel Posted January 18, 2006 Posted January 18, 2006 To say that most (not all) wage earners are underacheivers is possibly the most insulting thing I have ever heard. While your experience, J, may show you that - my experience is totally, and completely different. There really is something to be said for walking a mile in someone's shoes.
Carrie Posted January 18, 2006 Posted January 18, 2006 [quote name='Azriel' date='Jan 18 2006, 09:13 AM']To say that most (not all) wage earners are underacheivers is possibly the most insulting thing I have ever heard. While your experience, J, may show you that - my experience is totally, and completely different. There really is something to be said for walking a mile in someone's shoes. [right][snapback]859606[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'm equally insulted. Jas, you can't make generalizations like that and expect to be taken seriously.
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