What is a living wage?

[jasJis]

I ask you both, how many people have you hired and fired? Yes, I do look in their faces. I employ them and work with my Church's SVDPS to give them jobs. I list my jobs with the unemployment agency. No, I'm not highly educated. I graduated high school like my parents and most of my siblings. My grandparents were immigrants with no education. I have had employees who can't speak or read the english who become foremen within two years and make more the $40k plus company paid insurance. I've also have had american born english speaking w/ 2 years of college education work for me and I've fired them for incompentence.
I have an employee who makes $12/hr (plus bennies such as co. subsidized insurance) who raises 4 kids, wife stays home, a good man. He will never become a foreman because he lacks the intelligence. I pay him more than he's ever been paid because he works hard, always shows up, is never lazy, is dependable, honest, etc. He also gets a bit of help from the Government for medical stuff. What's wrong with that?
I recently fired a guy who has twice the intelligence and experience, was paid $16 an hour plus bennies, was offered terrific opportunity for advancement and could make more within months, had 2 adopted kids to take care of, had no spouse. He lost his job because working 40 hours a week was too much. We work 4 10 hour days. He always wanted off to pay a utility bill, do this, do that. He had Fridays to do these things. We offered to mail his bills or have someone else make payments during errands. Heck, I personally paid his electric bill with my money one month.
Not everybody puts the same effort in a job. If you are an adult, you are responsible to do the best that you are able. After you accomplish that, you can ask for help to meet NEEDS.

[Carrie]

I've never hired or fired anyone.

But I've been one of the people hired at minimum wage, working [b]hard[/b] 70-80 hours a week to make ends meet and still fell short.

[jasJis]

And for you stupid people, I clearly said: "Most people (not all) in low paying jobs are under-acheivers and only work enough to get food and pay rent and don't apply themselves."

Most is not all. I also have walked in their shoes. I've been poorer than most of you can imagine. I have a high school education. I've spent 30+ years working in construction so I speak from experience. Less than 2 years ago I was unemployed and shoveled asphalt fro $10 an hour for months in the Florida summer. Shut the hell up if you think I don't know what low pay and hard work is. I still put food on the table for my wife and our 2 teenage kids. My wife still worked part time because being a parent is our top priority. I paid the mortgage and utility bills. I got NO frigging help from the Government because I wasn't broke long enough. No, I didn't have thousands (or hundreds) in the bank. I worked beside men who have been doing the same thing for years because with food stamps, AFDC, free healthcare, etc., that's all they had to do to 'get by'.
I get to where I am by frigging earning it and applying myself. Sure, it would be great to work only 40 hours a week and have hobbies and stuff while I work at the 7-11 selling slurpees and lotto tickets. I happen to believe I have a little more ability and responsibilty than that. So hate me for it.

Carrie. If you aren't making it at what you are doing, then get another job, change your lifestyle, put some effort into changing your life [b]before[/b] you ask me to give you some of my earnings that I work pretty beaver dam hard for to take care of my family.

Edited January 18, 2006 by jasJis

[Jaime]

I don't recall Carrie asking for anything from you. I also don't recall how a living wage would take anything out of others earnings.

That's kind of

Oh I don't know

stupid?

[Carrie]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Jan 18 2006, 09:47 AM']Carrie.  If you aren't making it at what you are doing, then get another job, change your lifestyle, put some effort into changing your life [b]before[/b] you ask me to give you some of my earnings that I work pretty beaver dam hard for to take care of my family.
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I said I've [b]been[/b], not am. Past tense Jas. I'm currently a therapist with a graduate degree doing very well for myself. Good of you to assume.

I didn't ask you for anything but a little sensitivity for those who are in those shoes. I understand you said most, not all. I still disagree with you. Saying "most" is still too generalized.

Also, why so angry? I was just having a discussion with you. I didn't insult you or come at you in an angry way. I was only trying to tell you why I found your statement to be insensitive. Lighten up Jas.

[jasJis]

Um. Let's see. Carrie said my statement was personally insulting to her. She also said that I could not make generalizations and be taken serious. I pointed out I clearly said most, not all, to address her over sensitivity that resulted in her feeling 'insulted'. I was stating experience observations and as such it is more than a generalization and thusly, her claim that it can't be taken 'seriously' is without merit.

I also addressed Az's comment about walking a mile in somebody else's shoe.

And hot stuff, as far as paying an artificially higher 'living' wage, where do you think the money comes from? Doyou think it floats down from the atmosphere? The additional pay would first come out of the business owner's profit (assuming he's making a profit.) The business owner would see his costs rise and make adjustments to offset that cost. Maybe that cost would be cutting back on overtime for the workers, maybe it would be reducing their benifits, maybe it would be charging more for their product or service. The extra money given in an artifically higher pay comes from somebody eventually.

BTW, Carrie. I did not assume. I predicated my statement with the word "If". That seems pretty clear. And what experience and/or facts do you have to say that 'most' is innaccurate? I've seen many hundreds (maybe more than a thousand) low paying workers by working with them, either as a peer or as a supervisor. Then throw in all the other people I've known in other companies as workers or supervisors and I'll say I've got a pretty good picture. How many people from the Unemployent office have you interviewed in the last 10 years? How many people seeking help from your church have you met and offered jobs or discussed with their case worker? How many people in work release have you dealt with. Have you talked to more than 1 parole officer in your life?

Edited January 18, 2006 by jasJis

[philothea]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Jan 18 2006, 05:45 AM']What is needed is access to training, temporary rent subsidies, transportation assistance, subsidized day care, and subsidized basic medical care.  People need assistance to take advantage of the opportunities to succeed. 
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I completely agree with this bit. (I'm not knowledgable enough to speak to the rest.) Setting a wage standard is easier for legislators, because it doesn't cost any tax revenue.

Disclaimer: I am a useless parasite.

[Jaime]

It is the moral obligation of any ethical employer to pay a living wage Jas. There is nothing artificial about it.

[quote]2434 A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice. In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. "[b]Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good[/b]." Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages.[/quote]

Unless of course you think the Magesterium is stupid too

[Azriel]

J - no one said you didn't have your experience - and Yes I still find it insulting. And don't go all angry on me because I have an opinion. My opinion is that you've no right, experience or not, to judge someone making a low wage an underachiever. Things are just not that simplistic.

Have I had to hire and fire? No. Did I watch my father struggle for years and years to make it, with no insurance at times, while my mother was disabled? Did I watch him struggle to get through school, while there was no money? Did I watch my Mother apply for SSI, JUST FOR THE INSURANCE? and get denied because my Dad made too much money on UNEMPLOYMENT? Yes, I did. Not once did my Father allow my mother to apply for Welfare, because of his pride. His only concession in that regard was to agree for her to apply to SSI which didn't help anyway.

And did I cry when he graduated from College the year after I did? Yes I did, because I know what he went through to get me to the point that I could graduate.

Now he works a job as a middle manager where he has to fire and hire people who make low wages. And some of those people are incredibly hard working, and some of them aren't.

So yes, based on your experience, it may not be a generalization. But based on mine, its insulting to everyone who has busted their buttocks in low paying jobs to support and better themselves.

[jasJis]

hot stuff, do you even read what you post. What about this part: "taking into account the role and productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good." Also, "determining the needs and contributions of each person must be taken into account".

I'd love to make a living wage as a bathroom attendant that hands out papertowels and cologne. But I don't think that the role, productivity, common good, or my contribution deserves a living wage doing that.

Az,
I'm angered [b]and[/b] insulted that you feel I have no right to state my experience of low pay workers being under achievers. I never said 'all', nor did I say your dad was an underachiever.

Edited January 18, 2006 by jasJis

[Jaime]

Actually I read the whole thing as opposed to "just what I want to" as you seem to.