Submission in Marriage

[photosynthesis]

most marriages I've seen don't even come close to Ephesians 5. I live in soap opera land.

I don't think husbands have any special endowment that makes them more capable of making decisions or being the head of a household. However, SOMEONE has to be the head of a household. Someone must lead, someone must follow. That doesn't mean men are better suited for this than women but God did choose men to be the head of the household for a reason.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

In those occasions, it is possible for the wife to lead but yet still be submissive. It's a fine line.

[peacenluvbaby]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' date='Feb 2 2006, 12:11 PM']He is the one who ultimately says yes or no, but not without input from the wife.
This is assuming that he is a godly man.  He will take into consideration what the wife has to say. 
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Ah, my good name...yes I, the peacenik, have taken issue with the [color=purple]"he ultimately says yes or no" [/color]aspect of Mrs. Bro's statements. I don't think such a thing exists...automatically as an act of God for all marriages.

I believe that both parties come to a mutual understanding through dialogue and at an impasse, they take turns about who gets to make the final "yay or nay".

Sojourner...you understand me hurray!!!!!

Peace

[Era Might]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Feb 2 2006, 02:10 PM']how does submission play out if a woman makes a mistake and marries a dirty lying abusive unfaithful alcoholic?
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I posted this in the other thread as well:

[quote]In fact, if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family.

--Pope Pius XI, Encyclical Letter "Casti Connubii"[/quote]

Also:

[quote]This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; [b]nor does it bid her obey her husband's every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife[/b]; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs.

--Pope Pius XI, Encyclical Letter "Casti Connubii"[/quote]

Edited February 2, 2006 by Era Might

[track2004]

From my own experience (in dating relationships not marriage) submission just kind of happens because of how you feel for the other person. You learn to let them do certain things because they do them well, they learn to let you do the same. In relationships where there is mutual love and respect these things just happen.

My ex and I had a discussion one time about our careers and what would happen to the family (if we had one... it's complicated). We basically said that my job (and I'm a girl) would probably be the breadwinning one. He'd stay home or do film shoots, but I would work. I want to work, I love my field, and he respects my decision about that enough to let me do that, for the best interest of the future family we may or may not have. It's hard to explain, but we submitted to each other and filled in each others gaps and just fit together.... then we broke up... it was because of distance tho, so yeah...

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Feb 2 2006, 02:16 PM']I believe that both parties come to a [i]mutual understanding through dialogue [/i]and at an [i]impasse[/i], they take turns about who gets to make the final "yay or nay".
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you sound like you went to my college

hippie talk....

[Didacus]

I believe an important distinction here is this:

When you love something, you leave that thing 'free'. Thus in his decision making, a man must remember not to impeech on his wife's freedom.

It mifght sound contradictiory, but believe me its not. I can explain in detail, but right now I have to go.

[toledo_jesus]

I think women should follow their husband's lead. Husbands should take what their wives want into consideration and act accordingly, but sometimes you just can't agree on things and in those instances I think the husband has authority.

Of course, now that women are working it's all screwed up. women shouldn't work.

[Era Might]

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Feb 2 2006, 02:16 PM']I believe that both parties come to a mutual understanding through dialogue and at an impasse, they take turns about who gets to make the final "yay or nay".
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Too many chiefs, not enough indians, as they say.

A husband has to trust in his wife's wisdom, because it is her gift as a woman. But a wife also has to trust in his decisions as leader and head of the family, because it is HIS gift as a man. This doesn't mean whatever he commands is law, if not motivated by charity and right reason. But if a husband and a wife are both working with the mind of Christ, then the husband must have the role of leadership. A humble docility to this leadership is a virtue on the part of the wife.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Era Might

[peacenluvbaby]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Feb 2 2006, 12:20 PM']you sound like you went to my college

hippie talk....
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What college was that?

And....I take "hippie talk" as a total compliment, regardless of how you intended it.

BTW Didacus...Rock on!

Peace out!

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='track2004' date='Feb 2 2006, 02:20 PM']From my own experience (in dating relationships not marriage) submission just kind of happens because of how you feel for the other person.  You learn to let them do certain things because they do them well, they learn to let you do the same.  In relationships where there is mutual love and respect these things just happen. 

My ex and I had a discussion one time about our careers and what would happen to the family (if we had one... it's complicated).  We basically said that my job (and I'm a girl) would probably be the breadwinning one.  He'd stay home or do film shoots, but I would work.  I want to work, I love my field, and he respects my decision about that enough to let me do that, for the best interest of the future family we may or may not have.  It's hard to explain, but we submitted to each other and filled in each others gaps and just fit together.... then we broke up... it was because of distance tho, so yeah...
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that was an issue for me and my ex too...

when we were talking about marriage, we only had a tiny bit of hope that he might live. But I knew that even if he did, he still wouldn't be healthy enough to work in his chosen field so i would have to be the breadwinner... I can't imagine the strain that would have put on our relationship, though.

[YMNolan]

I think there's another way of looking at submission (subordination) that needs to be pointed out when referring to Ephesians 5:21-33

For the man, Christ asks him to make a sacrifice for his wife parallel to Christ's own sacrifice for His Church. In marriage man must give everything he has to protect her, support her, and please her. This is a big part of what love is, choosing to sacrifice your own personal agenda for the well being of another. It is through the combined wisdom of both the husband and wife that decisions are made.

For the woman, she is asked to be submissive - not as a slave to a master. Christ wants only the best for woman. They deserve a man who is willing to sacrifice for them. They deserve a man who chooses to love and protect and lay down his life for his spouse. By being submissive, a wife is allowing her husband to make the sacrifices that Christ intended for both of them. By submitting, she is agreeing to allow the man to carry out his vocation.

This was all designed by God out of his love for us. By following this plan and this mindset, we can only become better people. Imagine if girls started to date guys based on their potential to be good role models for children and solid foundations on which to build a family. I bet guys would start to clean up their act a little more. And what if guys started courting females as precious beings whom Christ wants us to protect, not use. Well, maybe then females wouldn't feel like they have to look like supermodels.

Now of course in this day in age many men are not holding out there end of the bargain. So many of us look at women as objects to use for our own gratification. In that case I, can't see how Christ would ask them to be submissive. An abusive, alcoholic, husband is not being the protector he should be.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote name='YMNolan' date='Feb 2 2006, 01:01 PM']I think there's another way of looking at submission (subordination) that needs to be pointed out when referring to Ephesians 5:21-33

For the man, Christ asks him to make a sacrifice for his wife parallel to Christ's own sacrifice for His Church.  In marriage man must give everything he has to protect her, support her, and please her.  This is a big part of what love is, choosing to sacrifice your own personal agenda for the well being of another.  It is through the combined wisdom of both the husband and wife that decisions are made.

For the woman, she is asked to be submissive - not as a slave to a master.  Christ wants only the best for woman.  They deserve a man who is willing to sacrifice for them.  They deserve a man who chooses to love and protect and lay down his life for his spouse.  By being submissive, a wife is allowing her husband to make the sacrifices that Christ intended for both of them.  By submitting, she is agreeing to allow the man to carry out his vocation.

This was all designed by God out of his love for us.  By following this plan and this mindset, we can only become better people.  Imagine if girls started to date guys based on their potential to be good role models for children and solid foundations on which to build a family.  I bet guys would start to clean up their act a little more.  And what if guys started courting females as precious beings whom Christ wants us to protect, not use.  Well, maybe then females wouldn't feel like they have to look like supermodels.

Now of course in this day in age many men are not holding out there end of the bargain.  So many of us look at women as objects to use for our own gratification.  In that case I, can't see how Christ would ask them to be submissive.  An abusive, alcoholic, husband is not being the protector he should be.
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Well put. Thank you.

[benedictaj]

And doesn't it say somewhere else that women should submit to their husbands - and husbands should lay down their lives for their wives, as Christ did for His Church?

But I agree with YMNolan

[track2004]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Feb 2 2006, 12:31 PM']that was an issue for me and my ex too...

when we were talking about marriage, we only had a tiny bit of hope that he might live.  But I knew that even if he did, he still wouldn't be healthy enough to work in his chosen field so i would have to be the breadwinner...  I can't imagine the strain that would have put on our relationship, though.
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See our talk was nothing too serious... more like distant future talk, but the conclusion that I'd win all the bread wasn't a "have to" thing it was a "want to" thing. He was cool with that too, because his job will not be as regular. I wanted the job, wanted the career, and it's not a thing I could really do part time. Me having a full time job 40 hrs a week 50 weeks a year would be better for us (and for any family that might later exist) than him working 80 hrs a week in some distant location 30 weeks a year (working on a movie set somewhere). So it wouldn't be him unable to work, but us deciding my job is more apt for breadwinning.... I don't know I guess this just points out that every relationship is different and works different ways.

[cmotherofpirl]

Submission is not a bad thing , you just have to pick the correct person to be in charge.
My husband refused to step up to the plate for any decision and left it all to me. It threw the entire relationship permanently out of balance.

[qfnol31]

I'm very bossy as it is.

Ask my little sibblings.

[YMNolan]

Glad I could help, if there's any other important elements I left out, please share. I'm still learning this stuff myself

[philothea]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Feb 2 2006, 05:33 PM']I'm very bossy as it is.

Ask my little sibblings.
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No need.

It was apparent enough. :

[qfnol31]

Yikes, if you think I'm bossy on here, you really don't want to ever meet me in person.













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