Centering Prayer

[Ash Wednesday]

I just remembered something in one of the Keating/Pennington books that I found troubling -- one of the questioners was a woman who said that when she was attending Mass, at times she felt the need to "center" instead of focusing on the Mass -- and the pastor answering (don't remember which one) told her that this was fine and to just center when you felt drawn to do so, even during Mass. I thought that was very wrong when Mass itself is a prayer and deserves our full attention.

[jezic]

um ... and as well, why would one need to center on anything buy Jesus?

maybe the name of this is backwards, especially if that is not what you do.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

Meditation, which is what centering prayer is, is in and of itself morally neutral. However, meditation in an effort to place yourself closer to God is a flawed and dangerous concept.

[jezic]

see meditation is not neutral. It can't be.

it is either for Jesus or against him.

If it has an external focus and it draws you closer to God, then it is good.

If it has an internal focus and does anything but draw you closer to him, it is not good.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Feb 3 2006, 04:28 PM']What sort of  "centering prayer" were they promoting?

I've heard the Jesus Prayer (i.e., "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, a sinner") referred to as a "centering prayer" and surely this is not a danger nor a distraction?
[right][snapback]874374[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I wouldn't place [url="http://www.svots.edu/Faculty/Albert-Rossi/Articles/Saying-the-Jesus-Prayer.html"]the Jesus Prayer[/url] in the same category as centring prayer. From what (admittedly) little I know about centring prayer it seems a lot like what the article from St Vladimir's seminary that I linked to calls 'inner exploration'. Whereas the Jesus Prayers focus is outwards centring prayer seems to focus on techniques and the like. This is extremely dangerous and bad for you.

The reason is because you're going deeply into your own consciousness through layers of emotion and the like that your waking mind has erected a barrier against. When you do this in an unprepared manner you can find yourself being filled with nervous anxiety and becoming very vulnerable and scared. Reducing your reasoned mind to a state of stillness without any real direction can also lead to your irrational animal element becoming more prominent. You'll be more sensitive to threats, more aggressive against things you percieve as threatening. Moreover, beyond all this you can also go completley insane.

If the depression continues go to good Catholic psychologist and tell him that you have been using these auto suggestive methods upon yourself without guidance and he might be able to help you. Centring prayer is very dangerous I wouldn't ever recommend it.

[jezic]

the Jesus prayer would be a good example of something drawing you closer to him. You are asking for mercy.

like myles says.

[gelibeme]

Yup, I agree the rosary is a beautiful prayer, stick with Mary and she will guide the way to Jesus.
On Women of Grace, Johhnette Benchevich addressed Centering Prayer, keep away from it. It will guise as being legit. It's crazy how the New Agers stuff creeps it's way in and poses as being Catholic. When praying let us cling to Jesus humbly.
Have any of you read Sister Josefa Menedez's work of [i]Chirst Divine Appeal for Love[/i]? I belive that is what it is titled. Just come to Jesus knowing how unworthy we are, yet realizing what immense love he has for us.
Centering prayer is stuff like clear your mind of everything and focus on the inner energy or light.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='jezic' date='Feb 3 2006, 02:10 PM']see meditation is not neutral. It can't be.

it is either for Jesus or against him.

If it has an external focus and it draws you closer to God, then it is good.

If it has an internal focus and does anything but draw you closer to him, it is not good.
[right][snapback]874600[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Okay, let me give you an example to show how meditation is morally neutral.

You're a field goal kicker for a football team. You're called upon several times a game to kick field goals. You don't want to get distracted by things like the score, the fans, or what you're doing after the game. So as you walk out on the field to kick, you clear your mind of all things, just focusing in on the kick. That is a form of meditation and it is morally neutral. A whole lot of placekickers do a form of meditation like this.

Just because something "doesn't bring you closer to God" doesn't mean it's against Jesus (you said things must either be for Jesus or against him, no middle ground). Eating dinner doesn't bring me closer to Jesus, but it isn't an evil thing to do.

However, doing something that doesn't bring you closer to God when you believe that it will is not a good thing. That is the essence of centering prayer.

[Desert Walker]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Feb 3 2006, 01:34 PM']However, doing something that doesn't bring you closer to God when you believe that it will is not a good thing. That is the essence of centering prayer.
[right][snapback]874630[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Yes! That's EXACTLY how I felt about it whenever I did it! It was almost like I was taking a step off of a cliff HOPING somehow I wouldn't fall down into the darkness but instead be lifted up to God... it really was a weird chapter of my life...

Whenever I would REALLY try to stay true to the method as described by Fr. Thomas Keating in his book "Open Mind, Open Heart" MY physical heart would start going THUMP THUMP THUMP THUMP THUMP. It was EXTREMELY uncomfortable. Ultimately I always felt like I was pushing God AWAY from me rather than focusing on Him in Himself with heart-felt love.

In the last couple of days I have truly found answers to this dillemma in my life. Part of it has been sharing it with all of you. But I started to read one of the books that Thomas Keating and Basil Pennington hold up as their primary source book. It was written hundreds of years ago. This particluar book is about contemplative spirituality and how to go about "doing" contemplative prayer. Up until last night I had been reading this book from the wrong point of view. I was reading it as a confirmation of Thomas Keating's book Open Mind, Open Heart. BUT IT ISN"T!!! The kind of spirituality that is described in this book IS NOT CENTERING PRAYER. IT"S NOT ANYTHING LIKE IT. Keating and Pennington have both grossly misread this book. It's called "The Cloud of Unknowing." That book has absolutely NOTHING to do with Centering Prayer. The message in it is completely different. I would say that a summary of the message in that book would go like this:

"Contemplation cannot be achieved by employing ANY method, for contemplation is a PURE gift from God. When GOD thinks we're ready, He will bring us into contemplation. If WE try to grasp at the gift of contemplation BEFORE God brings us into it, we will fall by pride whether we think so or not."

My conclusion is that the Centering Prayer movement is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS for Catholics because it has misunderstood and misrepresented contemplative spirtuality (probably unknowingly). The first mistake was to try and combine the spirituality of Hinduism and Buddhism with that of Christianity. The product has been a weird combination that VERY ODDLY does not mention Jesus Christ that much, and seems to want to completely ignore His Mother.

Edited February 6, 2006 by Desert Walker

[Sarah_JC]

I had a non habited nun come in and speak to my formation group about this... bad times.

[Quietfire]

Desert Woman,

As a person who is on the "other end" of centering prayer, I admire you for bringing this topic foward to discuss here. I have learned much from this and now have a better understanding of what some people may be going through who are employing this kind of "prayer".

Paranoia seems to be second side effect of this. The first being a moving away from Jesus.
I can personally thank God that I have never felt a need to use such a technique. I have contemplated, and found that through contemplation I have, in fact, grown closer to the Triune God. I also can attest that I have done this pretty much my whole life and never realized I was doing it. After realizing what I was doing, which is pretty difficult to explain here, I was able to focus more on God and the results have been nothing short of amazing.
God truly has been watching over me, a true sinner, and has never let me go. With the help of my Guardian Angel, who I am forever grateful for, I have learned to pay more attention to God and less to the world.

Again, thank you Desert woman. I personally know of one person who I strongly suspect is using the techiniques described in 'centering' and if it's true, then it is slowly destoying their life and they are not even aware of this. 'Centering' has brought them so far away from God that they are a completely different person. Paranoid, hostile, arguementive, indifferent and totally selfish. They honor nothing holy, no holy days, no true prayers, no repentance for their selfish and wrongful actions. Their distain toward Mary especially is hidden hatred.
It is really a scary thing to see a human being reduced to nothing more than an impulse paralleling a base animal action.
Sadly though, they do not call it 'centering' but see it as the only way to communicate with God to receive 'gifts'.
This is terrifying.


Pax

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='Desert Walker' date='Feb 3 2006, 08:42 AM']I picked up centering prayer when I was in the formation program of the Redemptorists. [right][snapback]874242[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

This is sad and it also makes me angry. It is a real pity that we have to protect your youth from religious orders.

[Desert Walker]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Feb 6 2006, 09:23 AM']Desert Woman,

As a person who is on the "other end" of centering prayer, I admire you for bringing this topic foward to discuss here.  I have learned much from this and now have a better understanding of what some people may be going through who are employing this kind of "prayer". 

Paranoia seems to be second side effect of this.  The first being a moving away from Jesus.
I can personally thank God that I have never felt a need to use such a technique.  I have contemplated, and found that through contemplation I have, in fact, grown closer to the Triune God.  I also can attest that I have done this pretty much my whole life and never realized I was doing it.  After realizing what I was doing, which is pretty difficult to explain here, I was able to focus more on God and the results have been nothing short of amazing.
God truly has been watching over me, a true sinner, and has never let me go.  With the help of my Guardian Angel, who I am forever grateful for, I have learned to pay more attention to God and less to the world.

Again, thank you Desert woman.  I personally know of one person who I strongly suspect is using the techiniques described in 'centering' and if it's true, then it is slowly destoying their life and they are not even aware of this.  'Centering' has brought them so far away from God that they are a completely different person.   Paranoid, hostile, arguementive, indifferent and totally selfish.  They honor nothing holy, no holy days, no true prayers, no repentance for their selfish and wrongful actions.  Their distain toward Mary especially is hidden hatred. 
It is really a scary thing to see a human being reduced to nothing more than an impulse paralleling a base animal action. 
Sadly though, they do not call it 'centering' but see it as the only way to communicate with God to receive 'gifts'.
This is terrifying.
Pax
[right][snapback]877074[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Sorry. I'm actually a guy! desertwoman is someone else. I'm Desert Walker . No problem.

Thanks for that post Quietfire! What you described in your last paragraph (about what's happening to that person you know) is EXACTLY what had begun to happen to me. I'm glad I stopped when I did. I had no choice really because my lost devotion to Our Lady was nagging me so bad, and my family was highly suspicious of centering prayer.

My friend (who I mentioned before) is still practicing centering prayer, and... all I can say is when I first met him he was FAR more approachable, easygoing, and generally seemed FREE-ER. But as time progressed something started to develop in him. He believes that this practice has brought him closer to God, but [i]he's such a hard person to talk to now![/i] And I don't remember him being that way when I first started getting to know him! I can also see hints that he's becoming more and more like the person you described in your post.

By the way, your description of your experience with contemplation is EXTREMELY similar to what the author of the Cloud of Unkowing describes as VALID contemplative prayer! But whatever you do STAY AWAY FROM NEO-CONTEMPLATIVE WRITERS! The contemporaries of the author of the Cloud of Unknowing were people like John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Thomas A'Kempis, and Walter Hilton, all of whom were VERY united to the authority of Rome. These new writers by and large have an issue with Rome's authority and for that reason alone I should have stayed away from them, but I didn't know what I was doing at the time. They will lead you to ideas that will HURT you in the long run! I know... Stick to old, tried and true texts and authors. I would seriously suggest avoiding MOST if not ALL contemporary spiritual writers. Pope John Paul II is the one exception though that I can think of!

Thanks again.

Edited February 6, 2006 by Desert Walker

[Desert Walker]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Feb 6 2006, 10:45 AM']
This is sad and it also makes me angry.  It is a real pity that we have to protect your youth from religious orders.
[right][snapback]877208[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Yes, I am very sad about the fact that the Redemptorists in this country have pretty much sold out their own heritage for some meaningless project of trying to become as contemporary as possible. What I saw that ultimately helped me to leave was that they are more interested in blending in to this culture than they are in standing up and shouting about all the wrong stuff that goes on in the culture. It's like they don't want to be noticed, and as soon as they ARE noticed they do as much as they can to assure people that they aren't the fire and brimstone preachers that their "old" reputation made them out to be. Honestly! Most young people today don't even know that the Redemptorists are several hundred years old, let alone the fact that they were once considered MIGHTY preachers of the God's Word!

The Redemptorists used to be called the "Marines of the Catholic Church." I'm sorry to say that now they would shun that title as "too militaristic." Or simply say with a short laugh and a weak, innocently and falsely reassuring smile, "We're not so tough now you know."

That's true. They aren't very tough now. I got into more sin while I was in their formation program than I have in my whole life. It was ultimately my fault that happened, but they weren't much of an inspiration to live a life of true holiness. It is a sad thing to see one of the most glorius religious orders of the Church fall into disarray.

[scardella]

The article made me want to read interior castle...
I think I had a priest recommend this sort of stuff. I think I tried it but it seemed fruitless, so I stopped after a while. Thankfully, I was probably doing it "wrong".

I want to beat up nuns (especially neo-feminazi elderly ones) who push this stuff, or just reevangelize them.

Why do I keep feeling like I'm turning into CoS?

[Quietfire]

Im so sorry Desert Walker. (about the name thingy) but thank you for having a sense of humor about it. It certainly wasnt intentional. Ok....now Im laughing at the fact that I didnt actually look at your 'name' and just started to post.

I have actually never heard of 'centering' prayer until very recently. I also never knew I was 'contemplating' when I was doing it. Mostly cause I had no idea I was doing it. I guess others would call it 'zoning out'. Although I was always completely aware of my surroundings and what was going on. This isnt the same as when I would zone out reading or watching a really good movie, in which case you could set a bomb off near me and I wouldnt notice my right arm missing from the explosion.(LOL) That I learned to do from growing up in a noisy Italian household.
I realized it about a year ago, when I was doing some reading from a much older book, which my feeble mind cannot remember the name of at the moment, and a light bulb went off in my head.
I thought that instead of thinking about mudane things when Im 'zoning' then why not direct it towards God instead which in my personal opinion is such a grander thing. Now I had done it before, as I said, in thinking about God, but never put two and two together.
For instance, before I actually directed it towards God this is something I would do quite often and in fact, I still do.
Im trying to redo a room...from picking paint to fabrics and furnishings (yeah...still working on my home) I would look through swatches and paint chips, magazines and catalogs which I could spend days or weeks or even months on, at some point I would sit back and start 'decorating' in my mind. I would actually 'put' the room together. This has always made my husband nervous because he says he can never 'see' the finished project...but I see it perfectly and because of that I would have no fear to dig in. Now this sounds all fine and youre probably wondering how this has anything to do with God, which it doesnt. But I would do this concerning God also, but never realized it had a name to it. I was doing it accidentally.

Now, I redirected it in the sense of thinking more of God and for instance, would start thinking about Mary, would start reading about her everything I could find. Scripture, CCC, and books that I had acquired and at some point I would sit back and start to think on her. This wasnt done on purpose. It wasnt like I penciled it into my dayplanner or anything. I would just start thinking about everything I learned about her and her relationship in respect toward the Father, the annunciation, the birth of Our Lord, her raising Our Lord, and then joining Him in his ministry, His capture, His imprisonment and torture, His crucifixion, His resurrection and her own assumption. There have been times I found myself crying so hard knowing I could never truly understand her complete heartache in seeing her son hung from the cross. How much our Blessed Mother must have suffered.
It is no wonder why we love her so very much. She suffered supremely, she suffered most of all. Her son entrusted her to us, and we must never forget. For she is our mother also.

Just try that. Think about Jesus. She was always there you know. You see a large picture as opposed to just repeating a name over and over until your mind is numb.

That's why the rosary is so wonderful. Contemplating the mysteries within it. Finding a good book that helps you understand each of the 'roses' of each mystery is so helpful. You find it easy to get lost in the life of Our Lord.

Blows my mind really.

Pax

[philothea]

[quote name='Desert Walker' date='Feb 6 2006, 11:08 AM'] But whatever you do STAY AWAY FROM NEO-CONTEMPLATIVE WRITERS!  The contemporaries of the author of the Cloud of Unknowing were people like John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Thomas A'Kempis, and Walter Hilton, all of whom were VERY united to the authority of Rome.  These new writers by and large have an issue with Rome's authority and for that reason alone I should have stayed away from them, but I didn't know what I was doing at the time.  They will lead you to ideas that will HURT you in the long run!  I know...  Stick to old, tried and true texts and authors.  I would seriously suggest avoiding MOST if not ALL contemporary spiritual writers.  Pope John Paul II is the one exception though that I can think of!
[right][snapback]877238[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Fr. Thomas Dubay and Fr. Thomas H. Green are also both good modern writers on infused contemplative prayer. They both restate Teresa and John, really.

Teresa, who probably never heard of eastern meditation, was very, very clear on never trying to still your own mind or grasp at infused contemplation.

Both quotes from [i]The Interior Castle[/i], Fourth Mansions (the beginning of infused contemplation):

[quote name='Interior Castle' date=' 4th Mansions, Chapter II']It is by humility that the Lord allows Himself to be conquered so that He will do all we ask of Him, and the first way in which you will see if you have humility is that if you have it you will not think you merit these favours and consolations of the Lord or are likely to get them for as long as you live. "But how," you will ask, "are we to gain them if we do not strive after them?" I reply that there is no better way than this one which I have described. There are several reasons why they should not be striven for. The first is because the most essential thing is that we should love God without any motive of self-interest. The second is because there is some lack of humility in our thinking that in return for our miserable services we can obtain anything so great. The third is because the true preparation for receiving these gifts is a desire to suffer and to imitate the Lord, not to receive consolations; for, after all, we have often offended Him. The fourth reason is because His Majesty is not obliged to grant them to us, as He is obliged to grant us glory if we keep His commandments, without doing which we could not be saved, and He knows better than we what is good for us and which of us truly love Him. That is certain truth, as I know; and I also know people who walk along the road of love, solely, as they should, in order to serve Christ crucified, and not only do they neither ask for consolations nor desire them, but they beg Him not to give them to them in this life. The fifth reason is that we should be labouring in vain; for this water does not flow through conduits, as the other does, and so we gain nothing by fatiguing ourselves if it cannot be had at the source. I mean that, however much we may practise meditation, however much we do violence to ourselves, and however many tears we shed, we cannot produce this water in those ways; it is given only to whom God wills to give it and often when the soul is not thinking of it at all.[/quote]

[quote name='Interior Castle' date=' 4th Mansions, Chapter III'] First, in such spiritual activity as this, the person who does most is he who thinks least and desires to do least: what we have to do is to beg like poor and needy persons coming before a great and rich Emperor and then cast down our eyes in humble expectation. When from the secret signs He gives us we seem to realize that He is hearing us, it is well for us to keep silence, since He has permitted us to be near Him and there will be no harm in our striving not to labour with the understanding --[b] provided, I mean, that we are able to do so. But if we are not quite sure that the King has heard us, or sees us, we must not stay where we are like ninnies, for there still remains a great deal for the soul to do when it has stilled the understanding; if it did nothing more it would experience much greater aridity and the imagination would grow more restless because of the effort caused it by cessation from thought.[/b][/quote]

[Quietfire]

That post was awesome Philothea!!

I should state though, personally, that I have only been there once. And it was more by accident.
Ah, but to go there again.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='scardella' date='Feb 6 2006, 01:31 PM']I want to beat up nuns (especially neo-feminazi elderly ones) who push this stuff, or just reevangelize them.

Why do I keep feeling like I'm turning into CoS?
[right][snapback]877259[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Nah, I'm typically snide, not prone to random acts of violence against hairy-legged grannies.

There are neofeminazi nuns out there?

[Theologian in Training]

I think, in terms of centering prayer, there are a few people to be wary of: Thomas Keating, Matthew Fox, and Anthony DeMello, most of whom have been silenced by the Vatican once or twice in their lives, and in the case of Fox, has become a minister in a protestant church somewhere.

I think the danger is that we learn a prayer that seem to "work" right away, we find contentment, peace, and stresses are alleviated. However, if you notice, these are things that help us physically, just like yoga, but essentially devoid of a spiritual element, or if a spiritual element exists, it is more in line with Eastern (not the Fathers Eastern but Taoism, Buddhism, etc. Eastern) spirituality than anything else, whose sole purpose is the attainment of enlightenment, which usually consists of achieving nothingness. And, while many like to argue that that nothingness is God, then why would He reveal Himself as a person and why would His greatest attribute be His love?

I am reading Julian of Norwich who deals with something similar, but it is clear her mystical experience is definitely centered around God, not as an eternal void, but as an unabiding love.

Anyway, I am always very cautious when people try to teach me "alternate ways" to pray, especially centering prayer and guided meditation. What happened to just contemplating Jesus in the tabernacle, on the altar, in the monstrance or on the cross? Or praying the rosary as a mental meditation, letting the scenes unfold in your mind, while listening to the rhythm of the Hail Mary's in the background?

I am sorry you got involved with centering prayer Desert Walker, but it is definitely good that you have seen the dangers that can result.

God Bless