Azriel Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Meditation isn't bad in and of itself, I think. Just the way some people practice it. I know that Centering prayer is different. But as someone who suffers from Anxiety - I have to meditate to shut my brain off sometimes. Of course my brand of meditation is focuing not on clearing my brain, but totally focusing on Jesus, Mary or the Saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 [quote name='Norseman82' date='Feb 2 2006, 03:20 PM']The word "spiritual master" should be a red flag!!!! I've heard the word "master" (as in "ascended masters") used in a "new age" context. [right][snapback]873446[/snapback][/right] [/quote] centering prayer [i]is[/i] new age.....its not healthy. ill get some info on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 [quote name='Azriel' date='Feb 16 2006, 04:16 PM']Meditation isn't bad in and of itself, I think. Just the way some people practice it. I know that Centering prayer is different. But as someone who suffers from Anxiety - I have to meditate to shut my brain off sometimes. Of course my brand of meditation is focuing not on clearing my brain, but totally focusing on Jesus, Mary or the Saints. [right][snapback]889591[/snapback][/right] [/quote] thats my brand of meditation as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Some details, since this is my fave subject... Terms -- [b]Meditation[/b], or "discursive meditation" in the Catholic sense, is where you mentally dwell on a subject -- a bit of scripture, or the writing of a saint, or a scene in the gospels. You reflect on it, see what it means to you, how it relates to your life and current situation, derive some inspiration from it, and perhaps resolve to take some action. The rosary is a very good example of discursive meditation. [b]Contemplation[/b], specifically "infused contemplation" as discussed by St John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila, is where God acts in a person's soul causing a direct, non-conceptual, apprehension of God. The first noticable effect of infused contemplation is that your mind is [i]involuntarily[/i] silenced while you are trying to meditate (as above). The natural reaction is to feel crummy and depressed and think you can't pray anymore. That's what St. John talks about in the first dark night. It's not a fun, feel good experience, and it's nothing like deliberately trying to still your own thoughts in order to force God to do something with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theologian in Training Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Desert Walker' date='Feb 16 2006, 01:49 PM']To Theologian in training: Thanks for the post. Julian of Norwich: another author I'll be getting to eventually.[/quote] Yeah, though I learned she did not believe anyone is in Hell and has a strange theological understanding of sin, hence her not being a saint. [quote]I was not aware that Thomas Keating had been censured by Rome at all! Do you know the details? It's weird but he sometimes gives me the creeps when I see a picture of him now. And I actually encountered Fr. Basil Pennington once at a monastery. That was before I knew anything about the Centering Prayer Movement; but that guy DID give me the creeps! He seemed... like a whirlwind of self-absorption. He seemed like he had a lot of energy but little time to notice those around him in a real way. [right][snapback]889259[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It was not fair for me to lump those that were silenced and those that were not. Keating was not formally censured, per se, but his style of prayer was mentioned countless times in documents by the CDF. Like Ash Wednesday said "Unicorn in the Sanctuary" is a very good book in which he talks extensively about this in his chapter entitled "Different Paths, same God?" You can find that here [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/NWMYSTIC.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/NWMYSTIC.HTM[/url] Here are some other links you will find useful [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6337"]http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6337[/url] [url="http://www.dotm.org/decelles-1.htm"]http://www.dotm.org/decelles-1.htm[/url] [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontific...new-age_en.html[/url] God Bless Edited February 16, 2006 by Theologian in Training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theologian in Training Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 [quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Feb 16 2006, 04:27 PM']Oh lordy, I don't remember much about Thomas Keating, but what excerpts of Matthew Fox I've read, and the Anthony de Mello book I came across were all [i]horrible.[/i] Apparently there is a good book called "Unicorn in the Sanctuary" that discusses the impact of the New Age movement on the Church and warns about Centering Prayer. My personal favorite work of St. Teresa of Avila is Interior Castle. What do you all think of Thomas Merton? It would seem, and I've heard that his early writings were all right, but his later works in life became kind of wishy washy and iffy. [right][snapback]889465[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I also heard that about Merton, however, I cannot comment definitively since I have not read much of him at all. God Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 [quote name='philothea' date='Feb 16 2006, 06:38 PM']Some details, since this is my fave subject... Terms -- [b]Meditation[/b], or "discursive meditation" in the Catholic sense, is where you mentally dwell on a subject -- a bit of scripture, or the writing of a saint, or a scene in the gospels. You reflect on it, see what it means to you, how it relates to your life and current situation, derive some inspiration from it, and perhaps resolve to take some action. The rosary is a very good example of discursive meditation. [b]Contemplation[/b], specifically "infused contemplation" as discussed by St John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila, is where God acts in a person's soul causing a direct, non-conceptual, apprehension of God. The first noticable effect of infused contemplation is that your mind is [i]involuntarily[/i] silenced while you are trying to meditate (as above). The natural reaction is to feel crummy and depressed and think you can't pray anymore. That's what St. John talks about in the first dark night. It's not a fun, feel good experience, and it's nothing like deliberately trying to still your own thoughts in order to force God to do something with you. [right][snapback]889611[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I have a lot of trouble with these things. I find it very hard to concentrate in prayer. Moreover, the spiritual writers, no matter how much they try to describe what contemplation is, never seem to be able to pin it down. I don't know that I've ever experienced it (I wish I could). I've had moments where I've prayed loudly (not for attention, I was alone) and suddenly my voice became very small and whispery, like God was trying to teach me the lesson He taught the prophets...I've had moments where I'd been meditating or even just pondering something and inspirations had hit me and an entire theological concept suddenly made sense and I was just amazed by the beauty of it...but I've never had quite what the spiritual fathers discuss, unless I simply don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 16 2006, 04:56 PM']I have a lot of trouble with these things. I find it very hard to concentrate in prayer. Moreover, the spiritual writers, no matter how much they try to describe what contemplation is, never seem to be able to pin it down. I don't know that I've ever experienced it (I wish I could). I've had moments where I've prayed loudly (not for attention, I was alone) and suddenly my voice became very small and whispery, like God was trying to teach me the lesson He taught the prophets...I've had moments where I'd been meditating or even just pondering something and inspirations had hit me and an entire theological concept suddenly made sense and I was just amazed by the beauty of it...but I've never had quite what the spiritual fathers discuss, unless I simply don't understand. [right][snapback]889625[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If you're willing to listen to audio files, these are the best explanations I know, from Fr. Thomas Dubay, as aired long ago on EWTN: [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=840549426&T1=dubay"]Prayer Quest[/url] covers all types of prayer. [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=6023&T1=dubay"]St. John of the Cross - The Great Exchange[/url] explains John's perspective [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=17&T1=dubay"]St Teresa of Avila - Personality & Prayer[/url] explains Teresa's perspective. There is a lot of overlap in all these series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theologian in Training Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='philothea' date='Feb 16 2006, 07:06 PM']If you're willing to listen to audio files, these are the best explanations I know, from Fr. Thomas Dubay, as aired long ago on EWTN: [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=840549426&T1=dubay"]Prayer Quest[/url] covers all types of prayer. [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=6023&T1=dubay"]St. John of the Cross - The Great Exchange[/url] explains John's perspective [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=17&T1=dubay"]St Teresa of Avila - Personality & Prayer[/url] explains Teresa's perspective. There is a lot of overlap in all these series. [right][snapback]889639[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Great, more stuff for my iPod, I already have Christopher West's explanation of Theology of the Body and a bunch of Kreeft talks that I have yet to listen to, now this....great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='Theologian in Training' date='Feb 16 2006, 05:24 PM']Great, more stuff for my iPod, I already have Christopher West's explanation of Theology of the Body and a bunch of Kreeft talks that I have yet to listen to, now this....great [right][snapback]889668[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Anytime! But they're real audio... does that work on an iPod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theologian in Training Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='philothea' date='Feb 16 2006, 08:46 PM'] Anytime! But they're real audio... does that work on an iPod? [right][snapback]889737[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No, but there are ways to make it work on an ipod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 I cannot meditate nor pray. Honestly, I cannot. I have terrible temptations against my faith, so much that it prevents me from having any meaningful prayer or meditation time. And I really.. just want to cry about it. I want to pray. I want to meditate. But i [i]cant[/i]. If i even attempt, my mind becomes so consumed in doubt that I feel like I could just stop believing. Its hard. I try to pray the rosary daily, but whenever I do, instead of meditating on the mystery, my mind races through all the things i could possibly think of that point to an atheistic world view and the non-existence of God. I try to get rid of them, but i cant. They haunt me. They haunt my life. I know I shouldnt let them win, but it's so hard. Its so hard for me to call on the Lord for help because Im not even sure if there is a Lord. I become doubtful and feel foolish, like only the weak minded believe in God. And i hate it. I want to cry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='Feb 16 2006, 09:07 PM']I cannot meditate nor pray. Honestly, I cannot. I have terrible temptations against my faith, so much that it prevents me from having any meaningful prayer or meditation time. And I really.. just want to cry about it. I want to pray. I want to meditate. But i [i]cant[/i]. If i even attempt, my mind becomes so consumed in doubt that I feel like I could just stop believing. Its hard. I try to pray the rosary daily, but whenever I do, instead of meditating on the mystery, my mind races through all the things i could possibly think of that point to an atheistic world view and the non-existence of God. I try to get rid of them, but i cant. They haunt me. They haunt my life. I know I shouldnt let them win, but it's so hard. Its so hard for me to call on the Lord for help because Im not even sure if there is a Lord. I become doubtful and feel foolish, like only the weak minded believe in God. And i hate it. I want to cry. [right][snapback]889770[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Take confidence. God tries our hearts and some of us will never leave the period of trial. St. Therese of Lisieux confessed in her last days that she was tempted "to every kind of atheism." She believed because she willed to believe, even when faced with the temptation to doubt. I am very often struck with this same trial. We know that the apostles worshipped Christ, in glory, after His Resurrection, yet the Scriptures say that some doubted. He was right there...they saw Him crucified, they saw Him dead...and they saw Him alive again...but they doubted! Do not give into doubt and you simply can't doubt. We must look outside of ourselves and stop analyzing ourselves to make sure we're perfectly faithful...do that at the examination of conscience, but don't waste your time making sure that you're faithful. If you have to make sure, then you are doubting that you are faithful (which may well be the case), but if you doubt that you're faithful, of course you're going to doubt that you really believe. Have the faith of a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 16 2006, 04:56 PM']I have a lot of trouble with these things. I find it very hard to concentrate in prayer. Moreover, the spiritual writers, no matter how much they try to describe what contemplation is, never seem to be able to pin it down. I don't know that I've ever experienced it (I wish I could). I've had moments where I've prayed loudly (not for attention, I was alone) and suddenly my voice became very small and whispery, like God was trying to teach me the lesson He taught the prophets...I've had moments where I'd been meditating or even just pondering something and inspirations had hit me and an entire theological concept suddenly made sense and I was just amazed by the beauty of it...but I've never had quite what the spiritual fathers discuss, unless I simply don't understand. [right][snapback]889625[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Looking back on my response, telling you to go listen to a long TV program is not very helpful. Here's the quick philothea summary of St. John of the Cross. Please consult a professional for further assistance. - As long as you can discursively meditate, do so. - If you can't, consistently, for an extended period of time, check to see if anything else is causing a problem. Are you depressed, or ill, or stressed by a new situation, or doing something wrong? - If there is something identifable wrong, then deal with that problem. - If nothing seems to be wrong other than you can't meditate, pray without meditating. Wait in darkness and dryness. Don't try to force any images. - Assuming this is the beginning of contemplation, eventually the dryness will begin to satisfy you, and you will be comfortable with this concept-free mode of prayer. One important note: this does not address not wanting to pray. The person beginning contemplative prayer still wants very much to pray, they just think it's no longer possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Ive just realized that the only time I have been able to pray doubt free is in front of the exposed Blessed Sacrament.. I am so happy because tomorrow there is adoration all day at my parish. I am going to spend the day with the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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