What form of govt. do you think is best?

[GodChaser]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1406302' date='Oct 20 2007, 10:40 PM']Now, if we had no government who would prosecute criminals and defend us from foreign invasions?
Isn't this contradictory?[/quote]

To ask you a question, if there were no government in the world, who would be invading who?

And why can't you have a system like the Jewish nation had in the years prior to asking for a king? They did alright then (not perfect, but alright).

Edited October 21, 2007 by GodChaser

[S][N]

couldn't be any worse than what we have now.

[Socrates]

[quote name='S][N' post='1405240' date='Oct 19 2007, 01:47 AM']
Or mention the fact that he was Christian. One person's version of a political perspective does not void it. If we went with your approach then everything would be doomed.

..Lol Quite the fear mongerer aren't you? If something doesn't suite your political view, you fly off the handle threatening that'd we would all be dead, tortured, abused and god knows what else you could come up with.[/quote]
No, merely pointing out the flaw in thinking that getting rid of religion would give us better government.
Some of the most oppressive and tyrannical governments in the world are officially atheist.

[quote]Atheist Govts CAN = would be the more operative word. CAN EQUAL.

Religious Govts GUARENTEE: Religious persecution, human rights violations, unfair legistation targetted against those different.[/quote]
Merely your own statement, reflecting your own anti-religious bigotry. This statement is not backed up by any facts. One could just as easily switch "atheist govts" and "religious govts' in your statement, and this would be no less factually valid.
And while no "religious government" has been perfect (being made up of flawed, sinful men), there have been plenty of Christian governments through history which have been relatively just and peaceful.
Things like genocide have been largely the result of secular 20th-century totalitarian regimes, not Christian governments.
However, the track record of atheist governments have been far worse. The only officially atheist governments have been Communist regimes which have committed oppression, genocide, etc. on a scale not seen in any Christian governments.
Your theoretical peaceful athiest utopia remains pure fantasy, and thus has no bearing on reality.

[quote]Let's not forget what the Crusaders did upon entering Jerusalem, or how the Muslims were treated in Spain (and no I'm not defending what the Muslims did either before you try twisting my words).[/quote]
Run a search on "Crusades" for more on this topic. The facts are alot more complex than "evil Christians" attacking "peaceful Muslims." Yes, Christians and Muslims fought each other. What's your point? Secular and atheist governments have certainly engaged in their share of warfare. (The secular wars of the 20th century have resulted in far more bloodshed than any previous "religious" wars.)
War seems to be an unfortunate constant in human history, and there is absolutely no evidence to indicate that getting rid of religion would end warfare.

[quote]Religions have killed more people than any socialist/communist/secular govt could think to. And most of this has been on the end of a King sworn in by a Catholic Cardinal/Bishop.

So please...[/quote]
Actually, that statement is blatantly false. An estimated 75-100+ million have been murdered around the world by Communist regimes in the 20th century alone. Christian governments have come nowhere close.

If you want to debate history (giving specific names, dates, places, and estimates by reputable historians), I'll be more than happy to take you on. Vague anti-Christian rants won't cut it, though.

[S][N]

Communist regimes which have committed oppression, genocide, etc. on a scale not seen in any Christian governments."

Your own biased assumption also. History can show religious govts have easily killed more than any atheist govt, now by 'religious' i am not saying Islamic, Christian, Jewish alone. Im speaking throughout time, those who worshipped all forms of gods from Horus and Anubis to Zeus and ancestral worshipping in Shintoism.

"Your theoretical peaceful athiest utopia remains pure fantasy, and thus has no bearing on reality."

I never spoke of a utopia towards atheism or it as an agenda for an atheist govt...whom shows his bigotry now? Not all atheists are the same, not all atheists share nor follow the same type of thinking. Perhaps lets keep that in mind before you go judging someone on their beliefs when they haven't described them to you.

"(The secular wars of the 20th century have resulted in far more bloodshed than any previous "religious" wars.)"

Again you seem to believe their was no highrate of bloodshed prior to the 20th century and disclaim history to try to prove a point. Getting old.

-------

So you deny that during the middle ages, Kings were sworn in by Bishops and believed to be directed by the Holy Spirit for their country?..

I wouldn't be surprised that many have died...and again with the 20th century timeline...lets move outside that. Perhaps yes it is true, but over the 1000's of years religions have come and gone, im sure that number would seem small.

"If you want to debate history (giving specific names, dates, places, and estimates by reputable historians), I'll be more than happy to take you on. Vague anti-Christian rants won't cut it, though."

Ironic statement since you never used any yourself. So lets move past the 20th century and look further into history, where you dont seem to want to go. Lets also get off this seemingly ignorant and arrogant view you have that all atheists share the same beliefs..especially that "Utopia" idea. And last, it wasn't anti-christian since im accusing ALL forms of religion, so lets jump off the self-victimization train as well shall we?..Thankyou.

[Socrates]

[quote name='S][N' post='1407049' date='Oct 22 2007, 01:42 AM']
Communist regimes which have committed oppression, genocide, etc. on a scale not seen in any Christian governments."

Your own biased assumption also. History can show religious govts have easily killed more than any atheist govt, now by 'religious' i am not saying Islamic, Christian, Jewish alone. Im speaking throughout time, those who worshipped all forms of gods from Horus and Anubis to Zeus and ancestral worshipping in Shintoism.[/quote]
If "history can show," then give me some solid historical backing for your statements. Historians generally estimate the number murdered by Communism world-wide to be between 75-100 million (some say less, some say more), though "purges," executions, forced famines, etc. ([url="http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.2.GIF"]Here's a chart from a grad paper on the topic.[/url])

Of course, I would probably be the first to agree with you in denouncing various forms of pagan religion, as well as Islamic fundamentalism. Some forms of paganism were especially bloodthirsty, such as the Aztec religion, and the cult of Baal-Molock in North Africa.
As a Catholic, I believe that only the Christian religion, in particular the Catholic Faith, is the true religion, so I will not be much concerned defending pagan religions. (Though even most traditional pagan religions were far less murderous than atheistic Communist regimes. And of course, when considering numbers, you must remember that you are comparing Communist regimes from a period of less than 100 years against all the governments and kingdoms of many thousands of of years of human history around the globe!)


[quote]"Your theoretical peaceful athiest utopia remains pure fantasy, and thus has no bearing on reality."

I never spoke of a utopia towards atheism or it as an agenda for an atheist govt...whom shows his bigotry now? Not all atheists are the same, not all atheists share nor follow the same type of thinking. Perhaps lets keep that in mind before you go judging someone on their beliefs when they haven't described them to you.[/quote]
It was you who claimed that religion [i]necessitated[/i] bloodshed and attrocities, while atheist government [i]can[/i] (according to you) be totally peaceful and bloodless.
I call your theoretical peaceful benevolent atheist state a fantastical utopia ("nowhere").
You must compare existing religious states against a non-existent atheist state to make your claim.
When discussing regimes that actually exist/existed, you have no case.
Your claim remains nothing but theory and opinion, unsubstantiated by anything in reality.

[quote]"(The secular wars of the 20th century have resulted in far more bloodshed than any previous "religious" wars.)"

Again you seem to believe their was no highrate of bloodshed prior to the 20th century and disclaim history to try to prove a point. Getting old.[/quote]
The bloodshed of the 20th century (including two world wars, as well as the forementioned attrocities under Communism and Nazism), exceeds anything in prior centuries, at least in Christian societies.
As there were no officially atheist regimes (other than the short-lived but equally bloodthirsty regime of Revolutionary France) prior to the 20th Century, you have no other point of comparison.
But the fact remains that the track record of atheistic government (historically short as it may be) is absolutely attrocious, and does nothing to convince me that atheism will in fact lead to benevolent government.

-------

[quote]So you deny that during the middle ages, Kings were sworn in by Bishops and believed to be directed by the Holy Spirit for their country?..[/quote]
Yes. Nobody believed kings, even Catholic kings, to be infallible in their actions. And there were a number of times during the middle ages when the Church explicitely denounced the actions of "Christian" kings.
You are getting distorted information about medieval history.

[quote]I wouldn't be surprised that many have died...and again with the 20th century timeline...lets move outside that. Perhaps yes it is true, but over the 1000's of years religions have come and gone, im sure that number would seem small.[/quote]
Again, show me some numbers and sources.
Around 100,000,000 over an approximately 75 year period is quite a lot of deaths!
The fact that you'd have to go back thousands of years to come up with something equivalent should tell you something.


"[quote]If you want to debate history (giving specific names, dates, places, and estimates by reputable historians), I'll be more than happy to take you on. Vague anti-Christian rants won't cut it, though."

Ironic statement since you never used any yourself. So lets move past the 20th century and look further into history, where you dont seem to want to go. Lets also get off this seemingly ignorant and arrogant view you have that all atheists share the same beliefs..especially that "Utopia" idea. And last, it wasn't anti-christian since im accusing ALL forms of religion, so lets jump off the self-victimization train as well shall we?..Thankyou.[/quote]
We can discuss the killings and attrocities under Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Kim Il-sung to name just a few.
So far, you've yet to show me anything comparable from religious (much less Christian) governments.

And as a Christian, I don't think much of the now-fashionable atheist tactic of lumping all religions together.
The Christian Faith is radically different from many non-Christian religions.
Again, I don't defend generic "religion." (I suppose, technically you'd consider satanism a "religion," yet I'd never defend that.)
Lumping Catholic Christians together with human-sacrificing Aztec idol-worshippers or Islamic suicide bombers is no more accurate than lumping you together with Joseph Stalin.
I see a double-standard here.

Let me know when you're ready to cut the snide remarks and start debating history. Thank you.

Edited October 23, 2007 by Socrates

[S][N]

Too much junk to read, shorten it. I can't be stuffed wasting 10 minutes reading all that.

[mortify]

s][n, you're getting owned

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='mortify' post='1407825' date='Oct 23 2007, 09:57 AM']s][n, you're getting owned [/quote]

[Laudate_Dominum]

Catholic Anarchism.

No coercive government, no industrial hegemony, no institutionalization.

[Winchester]

ARISE ANCIENT THREAD AND DO MY BIDDING!
[img]http://abandonedrealms.com/realms/classes/images/necromancer.jpg[/img]

[picchick]

There are too many choices for my brain to handle
I am undecided at the moment. I will get back to you all.

Edited May 29, 2008 by picchick

[goldenchild17]

I believe monarchy is the best, but none of them (monarchy included) are good if it's not Catholic. Any number of governmental structures can work if Catholic, democracy included, but I don't really like it very much.

[Galloglasses]

I'm tempted to pick Catholic Democracy, but it is far too easy to secularise.
Catholic Theocracy sounds very nice to me, I don't think I'd mind the Pope ruling Ireland, but I picked Catholic Monarchy because I veiw it as very hard to secularise. (Which I veiw as the major flaw of most democracies these days, a complete lack of importance to Religion at all), and because I'd like a leader closer to Home. The Pope would have to manage all the other Countries and as thus, would have to remain in Rome.

[Galloglasses]

Also: Woah, alot of people picked Monarchy. o0

[Laudate_Dominum]

But nobody has picked Catholic Anarchy.