Aloysius Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 I will take the position that only one angel can dance on the tip of a needle. Be careful, this debate could get heated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 16 2006, 07:07 PM']I will take the position that only one angel can dance on the tip of a needle. Be careful, this debate could get heated! [right][snapback]889769[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I would state that this is a fallacious question for a pin is a corporeal object, yet angels are non-corporeal. To ask how many non corporeal persons may fit into a space is non-logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 16 2006, 07:07 PM']I will take the position that only one angel can dance on the tip of a needle. Be careful, this debate could get heated! [right][snapback]889769[/snapback][/right] [/quote] As many as God wills to dance on the tip of a needle, if God would ever will such a thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezic Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 i agree with Paphnutius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 (edited) You pose (through Augustine or Aqaunis was it?) an interesting question. To try and think of it in a corporal sense, one might say an angel per atom. Then they might say, an angel per quirk etc. Eventually one might say an infinite number, but if it's infinite, then there can be no angels anywhere else? And is it possible to have infinite angels? If that's possible, then wouldn't it make sense that the pin couldn't exist to make room for the angels? Then maybe I would have to infinity minus a few to make room for the pin. But can you really have infinity minus something? What's infinity? As far as I know, it's only a way of thinking ot an extreme. It's something that exists, but cannot be determined. Or maybe there are a set number of angels that exist, and all that exist can fit on a pin. You might say that then God an make as many as he wants. But then it's almost like the rock so big that even Godcan't lift it thing in that you're setting up with wordssomething that doesn't follow to begin wth. Maybe I'm arguing adsurdum something in latin and ultimately getting to the conclusion that maybe what Pap said is the best answer. Edited February 17, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 KnightofChrist, your non-answer to this very important question merely says how many will The question is how many could, how many have the capacity to. Angels have free will, so the question is if all the angels in heaven wanted to dance on the one tip of the same needle, how many would be able to. Paphnitus, a better way is to say angels are immaterial and this is a material thing (corporeal means of the flesh, which a needle is not). Yes, angels are immaterial and thus by their essence and nature take up no space. However, we know from scripture that they have been known to enter the material world, to appear in the material world. Meaning they have the capacity to enter the material world. So how many can enter the material world at the point of the very tip of the needle? "can" as in, have the capacity to. Can more than one angel enter the material world at the same point? I argue no, a spiritual being which is non-material by nature, when entering into the arena of the earth which is unnatural to it, must follow the rules of the material world and so no two things can exist at the same point, and no two angels even if by nature they take up zero space can be at the same point in space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 I thought they were supposed to dance on the head of the pin. Isn't the tip going to hurt their little angel feet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 oo.. now with teh explanation.. I like Al's argument better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezic Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 i think that there is an infinite number of angels that could (not in the sense of a very big number, but something that is in-finite). I don't think angels have a "required" size when they appear physically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Feb 16 2006, 09:55 PM']You pose (through Augustine or Aqaunis was it?) an interesting question. To try and think of it in a corporal sense, one might say an angel per atom. Then they might say, an angel per quirk etc. Eventually one might say an infinite number, but if it's infinite, then there can be no angels anywhere else? And is it possible to have infinite angels? If that's possible, then wouldn't it make sense that the pin couldn't exist to make room for the angels? Then maybe I would have to infinity minus a few to make room for the pin. But can you really have infinity minus something? What's infinity? As far as I know, it's only a way of thinking ot an extreme. It's something that exists, but cannot be determined. Or maybe there are a set number of angels that exist, and all that exist can fit on a pin. You might say that then God an make as many as he wants. But then it's almost like the rock so big that even Godcan't lift it thing in that you're setting up with wordssomething that doesn't follow to begin wth. Maybe I'm arguing adsurdum something in latin and ultimately getting to the conclusion that maybe what Pap said is the best answer. [right][snapback]889929[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I would not argue one angel per any measurable portion of space. A point is a theoretical construct of space-time... which if you really get down to it does not necessarily have a measurable dimension. A point is a location, the size of that location (be it the size of a quark, an atom, a human being) is a point is a point, and no two angels can appear into the material world at the same location or point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezic Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 16 2006, 08:57 PM']KnightofChrist, your non-answer to this very important question merely says how many will The question is how many could, how many have the capacity to. Angels have free will, so the question is if all the angels in heaven wanted to dance on the one tip of the same needle, how many would be able to. Paphnitus, a better way is to say angels are immaterial and this is a material thing (corporeal means of the flesh, which a needle is not). Yes, angels are immaterial and thus by their essence and nature take up no space. However, we know from scripture that they have been known to enter the material world, to appear in the material world. Meaning they have the capacity to enter the material world. So how many can enter the material world at the point of the very tip of the needle? "can" as in, have the capacity to. Can more than one angel enter the material world at the same point? I argue no, a spiritual being which is non-material by nature, when entering into the arena of the earth which is unnatural to it, must follow the rules of the material world and so no two things can exist at the same point, and no two angels even if by nature they take up zero space can be at the same point in space. [right][snapback]889932[/snapback][/right] [/quote] while this last part may be true, you would have to quantify how much space they take up. I would guess that is not definite and they coudl be very small (like bacteria angels or something) without a quantity of matter or space that it occupies, this argument means little Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 16 2006, 08:57 PM']Paphnitus, a better way is to say angels are immaterial and this is a material thing (corporeal means of the flesh, which a needle is not). Yes, angels are immaterial and thus by their essence and nature take up no space. However, we know from scripture that they have been known to enter the material world, to appear in the material world. Meaning they have the capacity to enter the material world. [right][snapback]889932[/snapback][/right] [/quote]Thank you for the correction. I have always used the two synonymously for one reason or another. [quote]So how many can enter the material world at the point of the very tip of the needle? "can" as in, have the capacity to. Can more than one angel enter the material world at the same point? I argue no, a spiritual being which is non-material by nature, when entering into the arena of the earth which is unnatural to it, must follow the rules of the material world and so no two things can exist at the same point, and no two angels even if by nature they take up zero space can be at the same point in space. [/quote]I would agree with you on angels entering the material realm must adhere to the rules that govern the material world (), but that does not mean that they must be of a certain size. While they cannot occupy the same exact space, they may render themselves so small that more than one may fit on the end of a needle. Perhaps we could use Xeno's paradox here. If we can constantly divide the space on the end of the needle in half, and angels are able to manifest themselves materially in any size then the answer is limitless. This is of course assuming that they may manifest at any given dimension they choose. P.S. can we talk about angelic reproduction next? This has been on my mind for a few days. Can angels reproduce? If not, what about the story in Genesis? etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morostheos Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 I was once told that angels have free will, but because they have perfect knowledge they only have one choice to make in their lives: with God or against God. So I would think saying as many angels as God willed to fit on a needle would be all that could fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 (edited) I think you're missing that the end of a needle can be known theoretically to be a single point. That single point following physical laws could only have a single entity touching. I guess... but can points have corners and such and even in a three dimensional element sense and thereby have more than one point touching? So the question becomes how many points touch a theoretial point? Edited February 17, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezic Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 um there would still be many atoms that make up even the point of a needle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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