How many angels can dance on the tip of a needle?

[Aloysius]

I will take the position that only one angel can dance on the tip of a needle.

Be careful, this debate could get heated!

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 16 2006, 07:07 PM']I will take the position that only one angel can dance on the tip of a needle.

Be careful, this debate could get heated!
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I would state that this is a fallacious question for a pin is a corporeal object, yet angels are non-corporeal. To ask how many non corporeal persons may fit into a space is non-logical.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 16 2006, 07:07 PM']I will take the position that only one angel can dance on the tip of a needle.

Be careful, this debate could get heated!
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As many as God wills to dance on the tip of a needle, if God would ever will such a thing...

[jezic]

i agree with Paphnutius

[dairygirl4u2c]

You pose (through Augustine or Aqaunis was it?) an interesting question. To try and think of it in a corporal sense, one might say an angel per atom. Then they might say, an angel per quirk etc. Eventually one might say an infinite number, but if it's infinite, then there can be no angels anywhere else? And is it possible to have infinite angels? If that's possible, then wouldn't it make sense that the pin couldn't exist to make room for the angels? Then maybe I would have to infinity minus a few to make room for the pin. But can you really have infinity minus something? What's infinity? As far as I know, it's only a way of thinking ot an extreme. It's something that exists, but cannot be determined. Or maybe there are a set number of angels that exist, and all that exist can fit on a pin. You might say that then God an make as many as he wants. But then it's almost like the rock so big that even Godcan't lift it thing in that you're setting up with wordssomething that doesn't follow to begin wth. Maybe I'm arguing adsurdum something in latin and ultimately getting to the conclusion that maybe what Pap said is the best answer.

Edited February 17, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

KnightofChrist, your non-answer to this very important question merely says how many will

The question is how many could, how many have the capacity to. Angels have free will, so the question is if all the angels in heaven wanted to dance on the one tip of the same needle, how many would be able to.

Paphnitus, a better way is to say angels are immaterial and this is a material thing (corporeal means of the flesh, which a needle is not). Yes, angels are immaterial and thus by their essence and nature take up no space.

However, we know from scripture that they have been known to enter the material world, to appear in the material world. Meaning they have the capacity to enter the material world.

So how many can enter the material world at the point of the very tip of the needle? "can" as in, have the capacity to. Can more than one angel enter the material world at the same point? I argue no, a spiritual being which is non-material by nature, when entering into the arena of the earth which is unnatural to it, must follow the rules of the material world and so no two things can exist at the same point, and no two angels even if by nature they take up zero space can be at the same point in space.

[philothea]

I thought they were supposed to dance on the head of the pin. Isn't the tip going to hurt their little angel feet?

[dairygirl4u2c]

oo.. now with teh explanation.. I like Al's argument better.

[jezic]

i think that there is an infinite number of angels that could (not in the sense of a very big number, but something that is in-finite).

I don't think angels have a "required" size when they appear physically.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Feb 16 2006, 09:55 PM']You pose (through Augustine or Aqaunis was it?) an interesting question. To try and think of it in a corporal sense, one might say an angel per atom. Then they might say, an angel per quirk etc. Eventually one might say an infinite number, but if it's infinite, then there can be no angels anywhere else? And is it possible to have infinite angels? If that's possible, then wouldn't it make sense that the pin couldn't exist to make room for the angels? Then maybe I would have to infinity minus a few to make room for the pin. But can you really have infinity minus something? What's infinity? As far as I know, it's only a way of thinking ot an extreme. It's something that exists, but cannot be determined. Or maybe there are a set number of angels that exist, and all that exist can fit on a pin. You might say that then God an make as many as he wants. But then it's almost like the rock so big that even Godcan't lift it thing in that you're setting up with wordssomething that doesn't follow to begin wth. Maybe I'm arguing adsurdum something in latin and ultimately getting to the conclusion that maybe what Pap said is the best answer.
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I would not argue one angel per any measurable portion of space. A point is a theoretical construct of space-time... which if you really get down to it does not necessarily have a measurable dimension. A point is a location, the size of that location (be it the size of a quark, an atom, a human being) is a point is a point, and no two angels can appear into the material world at the same location or point.

[jezic]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 16 2006, 08:57 PM']KnightofChrist, your non-answer to this very important question merely says how many will

The question is how many could, how many have the capacity to.  Angels have free will, so the question is if all the angels in heaven wanted to dance on the one tip of the same needle, how many would be able to.

Paphnitus, a better way is to say angels are immaterial and this is a material thing (corporeal means of the flesh, which a needle is not).  Yes, angels are immaterial and thus by their essence and nature take up no space.

However, we know from scripture that they have been known to enter the material world, to appear in the material world.  Meaning they have the capacity to enter the material world.

So how many can enter the material world at the point of the very tip of the needle?  "can" as in, have the capacity to.  Can more than one angel enter the material world at the same point?  I argue no, a spiritual being which is non-material by nature, when entering into the arena of the earth which is unnatural to it, must follow the rules of the material world and so no two things can exist at the same point, and no two angels even if by nature they take up zero space can be at the same point in space.
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while this last part may be true, you would have to quantify how much space they take up. I would guess that is not definite and they coudl be very small (like bacteria angels or something)

without a quantity of matter or space that it occupies, this argument means little

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Feb 16 2006, 08:57 PM']Paphnitus, a better way is to say angels are immaterial and this is a material thing (corporeal means of the flesh, which a needle is not).  Yes, angels are immaterial and thus by their essence and nature take up no space.

However, we know from scripture that they have been known to enter the material world, to appear in the material world.  Meaning they have the capacity to enter the material world.

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[/quote]Thank you for the correction. I have always used the two synonymously for one reason or another.

[quote]So how many can enter the material world at the point of the very tip of the needle?  "can" as in, have the capacity to.  Can more than one angel enter the material world at the same point?  I argue no, a spiritual being which is non-material by nature, when entering into the arena of the earth which is unnatural to it, must follow the rules of the material world and so no two things can exist at the same point, and no two angels even if by nature they take up zero space can be at the same point in space.
[/quote]I would agree with you on angels entering the material realm must adhere to the rules that govern the material world (), but that does not mean that they must be of a certain size. While they cannot occupy the same exact space, they may render themselves so small that more than one may fit on the end of a needle.

Perhaps we could use Xeno's paradox here. If we can constantly divide the space on the end of the needle in half, and angels are able to manifest themselves materially in any size then the answer is limitless. This is of course assuming that they may manifest at any given dimension they choose.

P.S. can we talk about angelic reproduction next? This has been on my mind for a few days. Can angels reproduce? If not, what about the story in Genesis? etc...

[morostheos]

I was once told that angels have free will, but because they have perfect knowledge they only have one choice to make in their lives: with God or against God. So I would think saying as many angels as God willed to fit on a needle would be all that could fit.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I think you're missing that the end of a needle can be known theoretically to be a single point. That single point following physical laws could only have a single entity touching.
I guess... but can points have corners and such and even in a three dimensional element sense and thereby have more than one point touching?

So the question becomes how many points touch a theoretial point?

Edited February 17, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c

[jezic]

um there would still be many atoms that make up even the point of a needle.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Feb 16 2006, 09:13 PM']I think you're missing that the end of a needle can be known theoretically to be a single point. That single point following physical laws could only have a single entity touching.
I guess... but can points have corners and such and even in a three dimensional element sense and thereby have more than one point?

So the question becomes how many points touch a theoretial point?
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But this point must occupy some dimension correct? If not then the entire world can be considered one "point" but many entities touch it. This discussion would be fruitless unless we qualify the dimension of the point in discussion. Furthermore, a point on a basic graph can always be subdivided into fractional points, such as (1.45, 3.6784)

[dairygirl4u2c]

I'm not sure if it'd occupy a dimension. I was only using it in a theretical sense. But then, yes, I suppose there'd have to be a theoretical dimension.
I don't think it follows that the entire world can be considered a point from what I was meaning to say.
So as you said, we need to quanify. But we can't cuz there's always an infiity to subdivide to a theoretical point which is what I meant. THen we're back tosaying how many theoretical poits touch other theoretial points? that's like infinity and would then go back to how is it possibe to have infiity angels etc.
I really have no way of knowing how to answer this ?.....

Edited February 17, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Feb 16 2006, 09:13 PM']I think you're missing that the end of a needle can be known theoretically to be a single point. That single point following physical laws could only have a single entity touching.
I guess... but can points have corners and such and even in a three dimensional element sense and thereby have more than one point touching?

So the question becomes how many points touch a theoretial point?
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good point

[dairygirl4u2c]

I can always throw in the theoretical possibility that in the way God designed things, wanting things to be black and white, set that asingle point does exist and can be dimensionalized, but we just don't know it.
So, if a single point such as this eixsts, how many other points of the same size can touch it? If I have a two inch diameter ball, how many other balls can touch it? I'm pretty sure we could figure that out since the ball and the point would be the same in ratio to the objects touching. I'm not a mathematican and so I can't, but I think it could be done.
.
And again, as with the ball, there's the space in between the balls. Can there be space inbetween the point? I would have to say no. It'd have to be nothingness...
hell perhaps...
but can that even be?

and again this is just speculation

Edited February 17, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

that's exactly what I was going to say before my computer crashed: there is only one precise point that is the absolute tip of a needle. the size that point is expanded out to be is irrelevant, only one angel can occupy that point, that location.