What motivates protestants

[N/A Gone]

ok, im gonna get heat for this and perhaps my precious phisy that im sure is coming.

but why should a protestant abandon their faith and convert? I dont want prejudice comments and belittlements. Within our faith and Her ecumenical efforts what is the reason for return? many read Ut Unum sint as not demanding return, but unity. What advantage is in a protestant returning?

please no sunday school answers. Justify something. I dialogue with many protestants with advanced degrees and great visable faiths. To simply say a sunday school answer not only disrespects them, but perhaps ourselves for taking such a stance.

let the games begin

[Snarf]

Less time in Purgatory?

[Aloysius]

Ut Unum Sint's demand for unity is a demand for conversion-- conversion of their entire denomination to submit to the Roman Pontiff.

Until then, the Traditional Teaching of the Church remains-- once you discover the Truth of the Catholic Church, it is a damnable sin to remain outside of her. Though protestant churches are in partial communion, the protestant only remains in that impartial communion so long as he maintains inculpability for the sin of remaining outside the full communion of the Church.

So what is the motivation? It would be a mortal sin that could land them in hell to not convert. That's what the Current Magisterium still teaches and what the historical magisterium has always taught. If that's a sunday school answer, I apologize, but it is true. To remain protestant after discovering that the Catholic Church holds the Fullness of Truth would be a mortal damnable sin.

[Ash Wednesday]

I'm not sure what a Sunday School answer is, but here's mine: the Eucharist.

No protestant or non-denominational group has this bread of life, and there is a hunger inside of people that gives the Eucharist an undeniable pull. It is also the #1 reason why lapsed Catholics return to the faith.

[i]I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? So Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.[/i]

[Era Might]

Let me say, first, that an authentic ecumenism is very close to my heart, and I hope to see its spirit penetrate more and more into the realm of Theology and Apologetics.

Before we look at "Ut Unum Sint", let's see what the Second Vatican Council had to say:

[quote]Jesus Christ, then, willed that the apostles and their successors - the bishops with Peter's successor at their head - should preach the Gospel faithfully, administer the sacraments, and rule the Church in love. It is thus, under the action of the Holy Spirit, that Christ wills His people to increase, and He perfects His people's fellowship in unity: in their confessing the one faith, celebrating divine worship in common, and keeping the fraternal harmony of the family of God.

--Decree on Ecumenism, "Unitatis Redintegratio"[/quote]

Essentially, our vocation as Christians is to carry out the will of the Father, as revealed in Jesus Christ. The Council notes, from a Catholic perspective, that this will of the Father was entrusted to "the bishops with Peter's successor at their head", and is bound to the administration of the Sacraments. It is through this ecclesial bond of hierarchy and worship "that Christ wills His people to increase, and [how] He perfects His people's fellowship in unity". This visible Church, united to the successors of St. Peter and of the other Apostles, is defined by Vatican II as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (Lumen Gentium #48).

John Paul II echoes this teaching in "Ut Unum Sint", that obedience to the Deposit of Faith is the only way to live according to the will of God:

[quote]The unity willed by God can be attained only by the adherence of all to the content of revealed faith in its entirety.[/quote]

He goes on:

[quote]In effect, [b]this unity bestowed by the Holy Spirit does not merely consist in the gathering of people as a collection of individuals. It is a unity constituted by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments and hierarchical communion[/b]. The faithful are one because, in the Spirit, they are in communion with the Son and, in him, share in his communion with the Father: "Our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ". For the Catholic Church, then, the communion of Christians is none other than the manifestation in them of the grace by which God makes them sharers in his own communion, which is his eternal life. Christ's words "that they may be one" are thus his prayer to the Father that the Father's plan may be fully accomplished, in such a way that everyone may clearly see "what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things". To believe in Christ means to desire unity; to desire unity means to desire the Church; to desire the Church means to desire the communion of grace which corresponds to the Father's plan from all eternity. Such is the meaning of Christ's prayer: "Ut unum sint".[/quote]

The Christian life cannot be reduced to "a collection of individuals" such as Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and so on. Rather, according to the will of our Divine Savior, the Christian life must be lived "by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, and hierarchical communion". It is only in this context of a shared Sacramental faith and hierarchichal communion that a member of the Mystical Body can be fully and perfectly united to the heart, which is Christ himself.

So we see that the Catholic Church, as it exists in the communion of the Bishops and the faithful, was established by Christ and preserved through the ages, and thus, is intimately bound to the will of God for mankind.

Now we can address the question of why non-Catholic Christians should enter into the communion of this Catholic Church. Does it not seem triumphal? Does it not negate their true incorporation into the Mystical Body through baptism, and thus their relationship with Christ?

The short answer is, no, it does not.

John Paul writes in "Ut Unum Sint":

[quote]By engaging in frank dialogue, Communities help one another to look at themselves together in the light of the Apostolic Tradition. This leads them to ask themselves whether they truly express in an adequate way all that the Holy Spirit has transmitted through the Apostles.[/quote]

This is an essential truth about ecumenical dialogue. It does not abolish "the Apostolic Tradition", and it does not make this Tradition any less binding. Rather, it treats others with a spirit of respect. It seeks not to "dominate" or "conquer" others with Truth, but to share our individual understandings of this "Apostolic Tradition", and thus to help one another look inward and truly seek to be obedient to this Tradition.

The Church always welcomes non-Catholic Christians into her visible, hierarchichal fold because it is her conviction that this is the full and perfect mode of obedience to the "Apostolic Tradition" spoken of in "Ut Unum Sint". She does not deny that elements of this Tradition exist outside her visible boundaries; rather, she believes that within her, it is not only a matter of elements, but that the Church of Christ exists and lives fully, perfectly, as a soul lives and exists within a body.

The Church is convinced, as the Council teaches, that she is the "Sacrament of salvation", and possesses not only the fullness of Christ's revelation (through the ministry of the Bishops), but also the full means by which Christ leads us to salvation (namely, the Sacraments). We must call non-Catholic Christians to conversion for the same reason we must call the Jewish people to conversion; because Christ has revealed himself in a particular way, through a particular, indefectible Church, and it is only in this Church that we can live fully and perfectly by the will of Christ. Conversion is thus not a "submission" to a mere human entity, but it is thoroughly an obedience to the Revelation of Christ, as transmitted through the Apostles. We have no right to withhold this Church from anyone, because Christ established it for them

As Catholics, we must have a healthy understanding of ecumenism, so that we do not ignore it, but also, so that we do not distort it. I'll leave with two relevant citations: one from the Council, and one from John Paul.

[quote]The way and method in which the Catholic faith is expressed should never become an obstacle to dialogue with our brethren. It is, of course, essential that the doctrine should be clearly presented in its entirety. Nothing is so foreign to the spirit of ecumenism as a false irenicism, in which the purity of Catholic doctrine suffers loss and its genuine and certain meaning is clouded.

--Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Decree on Ecumenism, "Unitatis Redintegratio"[/quote]

[quote]Taking up an idea expressed by Pope John XXIII at the opening of the Council, the Decree on Ecumenism mentions the way of formulating doctrine as one of the elements of a continuing reform. Here it is not a question of altering the deposit of faith, changing the meaning of dogmas, eliminating essential words from them, accommodating truth to the preferences of a particular age, or suppressing certain articles of the Creed under the false pretext that they are no longer understood today. The unity willed by God can be attained only by the adherence of all to the content of revealed faith in its entirety. In matters of faith, compromise is in contradiction with God who is Truth. In the Body of Christ, "the way, and the truth, and the life", who could consider legitimate a reconciliation brought about at the expense of the truth? The Council's Declaration on Religious Freedom Dignitatis Humanae attributes to human dignity the quest for truth, "especially in what concerns God and his Church", and adherence to truth's demands. A "being together" which betrayed the truth would thus be opposed both to the nature of God who offers his communion and to the need for truth found in the depths of every human heart.

--Pope John Paul II, Encyclical Letter "Ut Unum Sint"[/quote]

Edited February 24, 2006 by Era Might

[Era Might]

By the way, I hope that wasn't too much of a prejudiced and belittling Sunday school sermon.

:

[cmotherofpirl]

Protestants have no clear final authority, no clear history, and no Eucharist.

[Sojourner]

Speaking as a Protesant who was so motivated ... it was the Holy Spirit.

Without the working of the Spirit in my heart, I'd never have even considered Catholicism, much less been drawn to the Eucharist and to acquiesce to the authority of the church and so on. I followed the Spirit's leading ... sometimes more willingly than others.

Without that, I think all the intellectual arguments in the world would not have led me to change.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Feb 24 2006, 03:56 AM']I'm not sure what a Sunday School answer is, but here's mine: the Eucharist.

No protestant or non-denominational group has this bread of life, and there is a hunger inside of people that gives the Eucharist an undeniable pull. It is also the #1 reason why lapsed Catholics return to the faith.

[i]I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? So Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.[/i]
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I think Ash Wednesday nailed it on the head. If you take away the Eucharist...what faith do we have?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Feb 24 2006, 02:52 AM']ok, im gonna get heat for this and perhaps my precious phisy that im sure is coming.

but why should a protestant abandon their faith and convert? I dont want prejudice comments and belittlements. Within our faith and Her ecumenical efforts what is the reason for return? many read Ut Unum sint as not demanding return, but unity. What advantage is in a protestant returning?

please no sunday school answers. Justify something. I dialogue with many protestants with advanced degrees and great visable faiths. To simply say a sunday school answer not only disrespects them, but perhaps ourselves for taking such a stance.

let the games begin
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[/quote]

You dialogue with Protestants on a regular basis? Big deal, so do most of us. One of the Protestants that I dialogue with the most has 6 doctoral degrees, all of them earned the hard way, and he still isn't quite sure what a covenant really is.

The best answer is sometimes the simplest, especially when you aren't offering us any details as to what arguments you are running into. The Church was established by Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ set into place Apostles and gave them authority to pass on their authority as Apostles. The Protestant mentality is subjectively in defiance to authority. The Protestant is their own authority and has lost the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ, the kingdom of God. So what does the biblical text demand us to make of the Church and the Kingdom of God? A scientific study of the text demands yet a study that is faithful to the intent that the authors laid down, if we are not faithful to even that, we don't have to be faithful to anything, and then we can be any kind of Protestant that we want. We can embrace homosexuality, deny the sacraments, and insist that everyone is going to heaven. But then truth has become subjective, and is no longer absolute. It's a sad, sad world to live in.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Feb 24 2006, 02:52 AM']many read Ut Unum sint as not demanding return, but unity. What advantage is in a protestant returning?[right][snapback]896418[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Without returning, there is no unity. Thousands of "independent units" is not what Jesus prays for in John 17. I see no movement towards unity within Prostantism. At one time churches were divided in the US over things like language-- not even theology. But I never saw the Swedish Baptists and the English Baptists say, "Hey, the language is no longer an issue-- let's get together (ie become one denomination) and start building unity!" I see many evangelical churches connected with parachurch organizations, but not really connecting with other denominations...

[Paphnutius]

Have you read the document Dominus Jesus? I would recommend it.

Also if a protestant is aware of the Catholic Church and rejects or denies de fide truths that the Church teaches, that protestant could be morally culpable of heresy.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 24 2006, 10:56 AM']Also if a protestant is aware of the Catholic Church and rejects or denies de fide truths that the Church teaches, that protestant could be morally culpable of heresy.
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[/quote]

This is not entirely accurate.

There's a difference between acknowledging that the Catholic Church exists, and being convicted that what she claims is true.

A Protestant can honestly not be convicted in conscience of Catholic doctrine, even if they are aware of this doctrine.

This is why we can never judge the state of a non-Catholic. The inner sanctum of their conscience is something that God alone can enter.

[Aloysius]

Yep. Of course, they could be culpable for not informing their conscience well enough; an erring conscience always binds but does not always excuse.

Era Might's answers are golden here.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Feb 24 2006, 03:52 AM']ok, im gonna get heat for this and perhaps my precious phisy that im sure is coming.

but why should a protestant abandon their faith and convert? I dont want prejudice comments and belittlements. Within our faith and Her ecumenical efforts what is the reason for return? many read Ut Unum sint as not demanding return, but unity. What advantage is in a protestant returning?

please no sunday school answers. Justify something. I dialogue with many protestants with advanced degrees and great visable faiths. To simply say a sunday school answer not only disrespects them, but perhaps ourselves for taking such a stance.

let the games begin
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[/quote]


The Eucharist.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 24 2006, 07:02 AM']Protestants have no clear final authority.
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I'm always offended when I read this because we do have a final authority in some sense. While I suspect that the intent was more regarding things like interpretation of scripture which some of us Protestants disagree on, we are still subject to the scriptures. Somethings even Protestants cannot disagree with each other on and still be Christians because they are clear in the Bible. It is not true that we have no final authority in anything.

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Feb 24 2006, 07:33 AM']A scientific study of the text demands yet a study that is faithful to the intent that the authors laid down, if we are not faithful to even that, we don't have to be faithful to anything, and then we can be any kind of Protestant that we want. We can embrace homosexuality, deny the sacraments, and insist that everyone is going to heaven. But then truth has become subjective, and is no longer absolute. It's a sad, sad world to live in.
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[/quote]
The slighly more authority inclined group of episcopalians doesn't have enough of a problem homosexuality. I think any kind of Protestant who is a real Christian and somewhat read in the Bible would have to disagree with what you said about "we don't have to be faithful to anything." What much of Protestant theology tries to do is to separate itself from the authorty of an institution with a human tangible figure-head but not from the authority of Scriptures. When you deny some essential parts of the Bible or think truth is relative, you're not Protestant, you'e just lost.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Feb 24 2006, 06:05 PM']  What much of Protestant theology tries to do is to separate itself from the authorty of an institution with a human tangible figure-head but not from the authority of Scriptures.  [right][snapback]897004[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Yep.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='Feb 24 2006, 07:27 AM'] If you take away the Eucharist...what faith do we have?[right][snapback]896526[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]As a Protestant and therefore limited in view, I would think the same thing that happens after your stomach acids reach the bread. Even some Protestants believe in spiritual presence, but the physical part goes through the digestive system no matter what the food is.

I can't speak for those who have converted, but one of the major things that draws me to it is a sense of a more tangible religion in following Christ. Maybe the idea that you can believe in something more, like saints the way most Protestants don't.

[Myles Domini]

I'm not a Protestant but a revert but I'll tell you what drew me back and what keeps me here: truth and love. Its no more complicated than that. Do you love Jesus, yes? If you do love Jesus and you know that the Catholic Church is the Church He founded then why dont you join? One of the most wonderful things about listening to Dr Scott Hahn tell his conversion story is the burning FIERY love of TRUTH that comes off of every word he says. He is Catholic with the same zeal and fire that he was once anti-Catholic. Why? Because his work, his religion has never been tainted by predjudice or pre-philosophical commitment.

Yes Dr Hahn was once bitterly anti-Catholic but only because he'd had Catholic teaching misrepresented to him. Once he'd found out the truth of the matter all that effort he'd put into exposing the Catholic errors he put into defending the Catholic truths. Why? Because always at the forefront of his mind was this love of Jesus Christ as the way, the truth and the life and this will to honour him accordingly. If you know the Catholic Church is the true Church and rather than joining you sit around playing ecumenical chess I'd question whats going on inside of you? You have to break open John 21 and meditate on the question 'do you love me?'

You know before I reverted I was extremely close to Neoplatonism in my views of God. My 'god' was emanationist, he was part of me, and through meditation and techniques I was going to realise the illusionary nature of things and achieve oneness. Well when I found out that if there is a God this emanationist idea had to go flying out the window because of the ontological distinction required for their to be a Prime Mover etc. I ditched it. Why? Because always at the forefront of my mind was the desire for not a truth but the truth.

I came to see that the God of the Bible was the true God and that the Lord Jesus Christ was His true Son and that Jesus like his predecessors the Davidic Kings had created His new Kingdom around Peter by giving him the keys to the house of David. Knowing all of this how could I but go home to the Catholic Church? You know it aint pretty a lot of the time. There's a lot of modernism, a lot of fluff, a lot of dissention but that didnt matter to me then and it doesn't matter now because its the truth. This God who loved me into existence and loved me still asked for nothing more than that I honour Him and when I found out how there was no way I was going to refuse.

Sometimes I think to myself look this group of Christians are so much more unified, this group so much more evangelical in their outreach, this group are so much more disciplined and reverent in their liturgical worship and I admit I'm a little jealous. A little tempted even...But I would never realistically dream of leaving the Church because I know that this is the Kindgom Christ founded and after all He's done for me, and all the sins I continue to commit until this day, the least I can do is honour what little I find myself able to and stick around as part of the Catholic Church.

Why should a Protestant convert? He should look into his heart and ask himself knowing the truth how he could possibly resist the design of the Lover who loved him into being, loved him unto the cross and loves him ever still?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 24 2006, 09:25 AM']This is not entirely accurate.

There's a difference between acknowledging that the Catholic Church exists, and being convicted that what she claims is true.

A Protestant can honestly not be convicted in conscience of Catholic doctrine, even if they are aware of this doctrine.

This is why we can never judge the state of a non-Catholic. The inner sanctum of their conscience is something that God alone can enter.
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Please note the qualifier "[b]could[/b] be." Thank you.