Music...

[Ora et Labora]

Alrighty pham. Another debate is about to be lit...lol So I hope. At least, I hope it will bring good knowledge into the thread...factual knowledge please.

I was almost positive that drums and guitars and what not were not allowed in the Mass...at least the drums weren't. Where in the CCC does it say that? Does it say that at all? Because if it doesn't I was mistaken. lol Thanks.

And, what do you think about this? What sort of music would y'all prefer? I think y'all already know what I prefer. lol

Kristina

[Noel's angel]

I don't believe it says explixitly about having no drums etc. People should really just use their common sense. As a rule I think "Is this going to enrich the Mass?" if the answer is no, stay clear.

[stbernardLT]

Read chapters 43 - 44 in the document called "The Roman Liturgy and Inculturation". It doesn't make any distinction as to what instruments can be used but it says as long as the are made suitable for worship, referring to how they are played, and as long as they are contributing to the uplifting of the soul. Maybe turn down the volume and keep it simple. It also says it is ok for the faithful to clap and raise hands while singing praises. Just some referencing that I thought might help. I think I might start advertising for a kazzo player to join the choir.

[CrossCuT]

[color=330000]With the drums comment, drums are a percussion instrument used in alot of classical works. It isnt only used in rock music etc.

There are drums used in Mozart's Credo which is sung at many churches around the world. I have sung it before with my choir and it is an awsome piece, drums included.
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[stbernardLT]

Jesus even had drums at his birth. Pa Rump, pa pum pum

[cmotherofpirl]

Organ and gregorian chant are to take precedence at Mass.

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='stbernardLT' date='Feb 24 2006, 08:34 PM']Read chapters 43 - 44 in the document called "The Roman Liturgy and Inculturation".  It doesn't make any distinction as to what instruments can be used but it says as long as the are made suitable for worship, referring to how they are played, and as long as they are contributing to the uplifting of the soul.  Maybe turn down the volume and keep it simple.  It also says it is ok for the faithful to clap and raise hands while singing praises.  Just some referencing that I thought might help.  I think I might start advertising for a kazzo player to join the choir.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but that 1994(I think) document was not speaking of Churches in the West but the missionary Churches of Africa etc. therefore, it isn't applicable either where you are or where I am.

Cmotherofpirl is correct, but I don't need to say that

[stbernardLT]

Just because something takes precedence does not mean it rules out every thing else. I agree on that teaching about the chant but, if your parish doesn't have an organ or doesn't have someone at all the masses singing the grogorian chant it is ok to do others types of music as long as the fit the norms of the church. Otherwise we would be without music at a lot more masses and the church says we need music even if it is just instrumental. Priority yes, primary no.

[Noel's angel]

40. Music and singing, which express the soul of people, have pride of place in the liturgy. And so singing must be promoted, in the first place singing the liturgical text, so that the voices of the faithful may be heard in the liturgical actions themselves.[84] "[b]In some parts of the world, especially mission lands,[/b] there are people who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. Due importance is to be attached to their music and a suitable place given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius."[85]

It is important to note that a text which is sung is more deeply engraved in the memory than when it is read, which means that it is necessary to be demanding about the biblical and liturgical inspiration and the literary quality of texts which are meant to be sung.

Musical forms, melodies and musical instruments could be used in divine worship as long as they "are [b]suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, and provided they are in accord with the dignity of the place of worship and truly contribute to the uplifting of the faithful[/b]."[86]

41. The liturgy is an action, and so gesture and posture are especially important. Those which belong to the essential rites of the sacraments and which are required for their validity must be preserved just as they have been approved or determined by the supreme authority of the church.[87]

The gestures and postures of the assembly are signs of its unity and express its active participation and foster the spiritual attitude of the participants.[89] Each culture will choose those gestures and bodily postures which express the attitude of humanity before God, [b]giving them a Christian significance, having some relationship if possible, with the gestures and postures of the Bible.[/b]

42. [b]Among some peoples[/b], singing is instinctively accompanied by hand-clapping, rhythmic swaying and dance movements on the part of the participants. [b]Such forms of external expression can have a place in the liturgical actions of these peoples on condition that they are always the expression of true communal prayer of adoration, praise, offering and supplication, and not simply a performance.[/b]


When you read it in context, I think you'll realise your comments were misleading

[stbernardLT]

Just because something says especially doesn't mean it excludes everything else. Pope JPII stated many times that youth have their own culture and I can bet you that most adults would say that too. So when they participate in the liturgy they bring their own unique cultural gifts. And the closing song of mass is not even part of the liturgy (see the girm) therefore, liturgical norms regarding music don't apply to jamming out the recessional hymn.

[cmotherofpirl]

The Mass is the Mass is the Mass. Teens are not some culture from Pluto that needs a special translator or special treatment because they are not capable of attending a normal Mass like everyone else. You don't go to Mass to hear a performance, get happy with feel-good music, you go because its a commandment and you owe it to God to be there.

[stbernardLT]

The call of stewardship is that we offer our gifts to the church and god. We might bring money but someone in Africa might bring a chicken, worth the same in God's eyes. An older lady might play the organ and sing a gregorian chant, some teen might play the guitar and sing some praise and worship, worth the same in God's eyes. If the music is inviting worship played with reverence and celebrates community why not. I played drums at a confirmation yesterday with a very conservaitve bishop and he had no problem singing along with "Trading My Sorrows" because he knew the sincerity of the teens making their confirmation and understood that they didn't look at the Celebration of the Eucharist as a "performance." The food was also very good and very catholic(no casseroles.).

[cmotherofpirl]

what does a casserole have to do with being catholic??

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Feb 24 2006, 02:51 PM']40. Music and singing, which express the soul of people, have pride of place in the liturgy. And so singing must be promoted, in the first place singing the liturgical text, so that the voices of the faithful may be heard in the liturgical actions themselves.[84] "[b]In some parts of the world, especially mission lands,[/b] there are people who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. Due importance is to be attached to their music and a suitable place given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius."[85]

It is important to note that a text which is sung is more deeply engraved in the memory than when it is read, which means that it is necessary to be demanding about the biblical and liturgical inspiration and the literary quality of texts which are meant to be sung.

Musical forms, melodies and musical instruments could be used in divine worship as long as they "are [b]suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, and provided they are in accord with the dignity of the place of worship and truly contribute to the uplifting of the faithful[/b]."[86]

41. The liturgy is an action, and so gesture and posture are especially important. Those which belong to the essential rites of the sacraments and which are required for their validity must be preserved just as they have been approved or determined by the supreme authority of the church.[87]

The gestures and postures of the assembly are signs of its unity and express its active participation and foster the spiritual attitude of the participants.[89] Each culture will choose those gestures and bodily postures which express the attitude of humanity before God, [b]giving them a Christian significance, having some relationship if possible, with the gestures and postures of the Bible.[/b]

42. [b]Among some peoples[/b], singing is instinctively accompanied by hand-clapping, rhythmic swaying and dance movements on the part of the participants. [b]Such forms of external expression can have a place in the liturgical actions of these peoples on condition that they are always the expression of true communal prayer of adoration, praise, offering and supplication, and not simply a performance.[/b]
When you read it in context, I think you'll realise your comments were misleading
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Is this from CCC??

[Noel's angel]

No, its from the 1994 document entitled "The Roman Liturgy and Inculturation" that stbernardLT mentioned. I was using that to show that his arguement concerning musical forms was flawed and that he was misinforming people.

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 24 2006, 04:59 PM']what does a casserole have to do with being catholic??
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Where I am from, Baptist really over do casseroles when it comes to get together and so I feel extra catholic when we have less casseroles. On the other hand I understand where you'll are coming from, I was anti-L%*FE T&@N most of my converted life. I always thought that it was nonsense and the mass was disrespected and drums and electric guitar did not belong there. Me and my wife fell in love with each other over these arguements (she's charismatic, kinda). I even beacame a youth minister at this parish and stated all the flaws of LIFE TEEN in my interview. A couple of years later i got to see the fruits firsthand, and I was like Paul when the scales fell. Since our parish has started to use this format it has grown in every aspect, because now people want to be there and serve. Yes it is emotional for some, but we educate them on what it really should be. And if we are to follow the great commandment of loving God with our whole being we must be emotional at times beacause it is part of who we are. It is obvious that we have differing opinions. To say that I am misleading people because I am interpreting the document different from you is wrong. The document is posted, let other people read it and decide for themselves. Our Bishop(our authority) apparently has no problems with drums and guitar, so why should any of your interpretations of what the church says supercede his.
Jesus does talk about obedience more than he talks about drums and guitars. So if my priest and bishop say ok, then I am not being disobedient. If the church says no, then they are the ones at fault.

P.S. JPII also celebrated masses that had drums and guitars and was joyful to see teens "feel-good". Let us not be slaves to the laws of sin, but instead be joyful inheriters to the gift of faith. I think God much rathers when someone goes to mass out of love and a want, than out of fear and obligation. "I desire mercy not sacrifice." Now that's personal.

[Noel's angel]

its not that hard to get a bunch of teenagers together and teach them some nice Gregorian chant

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Feb 25 2006, 06:32 AM']its not that hard to get a bunch of teenagers together and teach them some nice Gregorian chant
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But what would I do with my drums, guitar, dj, synthesizer, and kazoo (just kidding). Although that could be pretty interesting. In fact I even have a volunteer named Gregory (now that's would be freaky).

In the words of the great Rodney King, "I had a dream.... after the cops knocked me the hell out."

[Ora et Labora]

I sing Gregorian Chant. And ya, you would have to get rid of those instruments...

[djc08]

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c2a1.htm#1156"]CCC Liturgical Music[/url]
It doesn't really say anything about what instruments are appropriate but it does say [quote]The harmony of signs (song, music, words, and actions) is all the more expressive and fruitful when expressed in the cultural richness of the People of God who celebrate.25 [/quote]

So maybe to youth the Mass can mean more or they are able to open up more because the use of guitars, drums, and peppy songs is what they enjoy and that makes them not "enjoy" but love the Mass even more and what the Mass is.

[quote]275. MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS

The Conference of Bishops has decreed that musical instruments other than the organ may be used in liturgical services provided they are played in a manner that is suitable to public worship (November, 1967; see «Constitution on the Liturgy,» art. 120). This decision deliberately refrains from singling out specific instruments. Their use depends on circumstances, the nature of the congregation, etc. In particular cases, if there should be doubt as to the suitability of the instruments, it is the responsibility of the diocesan bishop, in consultation with the diocesan liturgical and music commissions, to render a decision. [/quote]

This comes out of Appendix 1 of the GIRM