Why don't protestants convert more easily?

[thessalonian]

I've been thinking alot about this and Revprodeji's thread caused me to post it. 1 Titus 10 says that God "desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". So why is it that this does not happen more often. If God's grace is at work to bring this about our RCIA classes should be full. But I am dissapointed every year at how few people are showing up in RCIA in the two parishes I attend when there are so many people out there without the truths of the Catholic faith. It saddens me. St. Francis De Sales converted I believe it was nearly 60,000 in just a few years in a very Calvinist, anti-catholic town. What is wrong here?

Thoughts?

Edited March 2, 2006 by thessalonian

[photosynthesis]

hardness of heart?

[Paphnutius]

I believe that we actually get on average 450-500 people in RCIA a year in our diocese, which is actually quite good considering our size.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Mar 2 2006, 09:11 AM']hardness of heart?
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That would certainly seem to be an easy answer and surely it is true in some sense. But the grace of God is there to soften hearts. And why was St. Francis De Sales able to convert a whole calvinist town? I think we have to look within for the answer as much as to lay the blame on them.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 2 2006, 09:12 AM']I believe that we actually get on average 450-500 people in RCIA a year in our diocese, which is actually quite good considering our size.
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How big is your diocese? My diocese is around 2-3 million (total, not just Catholic) of which I would estimate that maybe 750,000 are Catholic. There are around 300 parishes. If we are getting 3000 a year I would be surprized. My parish is the largest in Minnesota. 10,000 or so members. It's a pretty vibrant, active parish with conservative priests. There are ony maybe 15-20 in RCIA a year. That is one per about 750 parishioners per year. That doesn't sound too good to me.

[Paphnutius]

My diocese has about 85,000 Catholics.

[Myles Domini]

Check out my first blog entry [url="http://gracentruth.blogspot.com/"]physician heal yourself[/url] @ Grace and Truth. I think it underscores why St Francis de Sales could have such success in Geneva as opposed to modern day evangelists.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Mar 2 2006, 11:06 AM']I've been thinking alot about this and Revprodeji's thread caused me to post it.  1 Titus 10 says that God "desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth".  So why is it that this does not happen more often.  If God's grace is at work to bring this about our RCIA classes should be full.  But I am dissapointed every year at how few people are showing up in RCIA in the  two parishes I attend when there are so many people out there without the truths of the Catholic faith.  It saddens me.  St. Francis De Sales converted I believe it was nearly 60,000 in just a few years in a very Calvinist, anti-catholic town.  What is wrong here?

Thoughts?
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I think God's grace is more wild and mysterious than we can ever know. I think it's at work in Protestant churches bringing people to a salvation and to a knowledge of the truth -- even if it's not as complete a knowledge as they could have. Catholics have a fuller understanding of the truth, yes, but Protestants also have an understanding of the truth.

I'd love to see every Christian I know become Catholic. But do I think God can still save them if they don't become Catholic? Yes. It can be big decision for a lifelong, active Protestant to become Catholic. It has many, many ramifications in terms of relationships and other areas ... and while those ramifications are, in a sense, temporal, they are nonetheless a big deal. If someone takes a while to count the cost before embarking on such a journey, I don’t fault them one bit. Evangelism is a great thing, but it’s important not to forget that we’re talking about people for whom conversion will have real consequences.

And rather than be disappointed at the small number of converts, I think it would be right to be ecstatic at those who did count the cost and still considered the journey worth taking.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Mar 2 2006, 10:26 AM']  10,000 or so members. [right][snapback]901459[/snapback][/right]
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Minnesota-- land of 10,000 or so members.

Our parish is also big and our RCIA tends to average around 25.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Mar 2 2006, 09:51 AM']I think God's grace is more wild and mysterious than we can ever know. I think it's at work in Protestant churches bringing people to a salvation and to a knowledge of the truth -- even if it's not as complete a knowledge as they could have. Catholics have a fuller understanding of the truth, yes, but Protestants also have an understanding of the truth.

I'd love to see every Christian I know become Catholic. But do I think God can still save them if they don't become Catholic? Yes. It can be big decision for a lifelong, active Protestant to become Catholic. It has many, many ramifications in terms of relationships and other areas ... and while those ramifications are, in a sense, temporal, they are nonetheless a big deal. If someone takes a while to count the cost before embarking on such a journey, I don’t fault them one bit. Evangelism is a great thing, but it’s important not to forget that we’re talking about people for whom conversion will have real consequences.

And rather than be disappointed at the small number of converts, I think it would be right to be ecstatic at those who did count the cost and still considered the journey worth taking.
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One can have disappointment and eccstatic joy at the same time. Nothing is more beautiful to me than the Easter Vigil Mass when those converts are up before the priest recieving their sacraments for the first time. My heart is moved to tears when one is baptized. Tears of joy came down my cheeks as my wife recieved her first communion. Yet it is very sad that we recieve the body, blood, soul, and divinity of the God of the universe and so many do not see this great truth. How can one help but not be sad over that. Praise be to God they do believe in the name of Jesus. But the chasm between recieving our Lord and only having a meal of rememberence is so great. To not recieve the assurance that their sins are forgiven in the sacrament of penance cannot but be saddening and I want it for them! Catholcism is not just slightly fuller in truth it is infinitely fuller in grace! God is of course the judge and I think there may well be those we knew as protestants, even non-Christians, who we meet up with in heaven. God's grace works outside the visible bounds of the Church or noone would ever come to it. Though it will not surprise me if there are not. I know that God is not limited by his sacraments. Yet to not be sad for these people is to deny the power of them. To somehow think they are unneccessary. I cannot in good conscience let my soul rest completely in any kind of comfort knowing that they are not Catholic. The scriptures say the truth is knowable. Not just some of it but all of it. They say "The shall worship in spirit and in truth". NOONE who does not worship in the Mass worships anywhere near in the full spirit and full truth!

I have a wife and 4 kids (three from her previous marriage), a mother in Law, and a Grandmother in Law who converted to the faith. I do get much joy and am very thankful for this. Once again my joy is tempered with sorrow for those who do not experience the fullness of grace in Christ's Church.

Blessings

Edited March 2, 2006 by thessalonian

[Lil Red]

lack of evangelization by faithful Catholics.

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Mar 2 2006, 11:29 AM']lack of evangelization by faithful Catholics.
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Too many faithful Catholics without sufficient knowledge of their faith to be truly effective evangelizers.

[Brother Adam]

The anti-Catholic movement has made it a scary idea for a Protestant to become Catholic. Look how long it took me and I had the prayers and guidance of everyone on phatmass. If you tell a lie enough times, people begin to believe it. The Catholic Church has been lied about in the US for a long, long time, especially through people like Jack Chick, Binny Hinn, Boettner, McCarthy, Swaggart, White, and others.

When you are told by your pastor that you will be worshipping Satan for becoming Catholic, it takes time and prayer.

Edited March 2, 2006 by Brother Adam

[thessalonian]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Mar 2 2006, 10:35 AM']Too many faithful Catholics without sufficient knowledge of their faith to be truly effective evangelizers.
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Amen! As a result of the lack of knowledge also I think that there is less passion. Also while I do not want to be negative about what Sojourner posted because she has some valid points, I do think this idea that protestants are okay where they are at, leaves us passionless. "Would that you were hot or cold but that you are lukewarm I vomit you out of my sight". We need to have passion for the faith and that same passion for those not a part of it. God will sort it out if they don't listen to us but we cannot use "well their Christian too" as an excuse I do not believe. Once again I think half the blame is on us.

[thessalonian]

Sin??? Ours and theirs??? :

Edited March 2, 2006 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 2 2006, 10:41 AM']The anti-Catholic movement has made it a scary idea for a Protestant to become Catholic. Look how long it took me and I had the prayers and guidance of everyone on phatmass. If you tell a lie enough times, people begin to believe it. The Catholic Church has been lied about in the US for a long, long time, especially through people like Jack Chick, Binny Hinn, Boettner, McCarthy, Swaggart, White, and others.

When you are told by your pastor that you will be worshipping Satan for becoming Catholic, it takes time and prayer.
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Point well taken but grace should be able to overcome this.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Mar 2 2006, 04:53 PM']Sin???  Ours and theirs???  : 
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Ours. St Francis de Sales was successful because he was [b]a saint[/b]. As I said in my blogspot entry quoting St Francis a sick doctor can cure sick patients. But if your doctor looks like a dying wreck are you going to trust his knowledge however impeccable it might look on paper? Many Catholics just dont give off the impression of being credible Christians to believe anything that they might have to say about the gospel. One has to remember that one of the main tools of the Protestant pamphlet wars of the 16th century was to highlight the vices of the Catholic clergy. Indeed, heretics have consistently used this technique to discredit what Catholic preachers had to say.

When St Dominic de Guzman arrived in Southern France he knew that the wellfed carriage driven preachers would never be believed when contrasted to the rabidly aesthetic Cathari leaders. For this reason he founded a convent of Dominican Nuns with the charter to be even more austere than the Albigensians and decided to take over the preaching work himself.

If you dont look trustworthy nobody is going to trust you. Too many Protestants, non-Christians and unbelievers have encountered that modernist too many, that cafeteria Catholic too much, that faithful Catholic too little to find the Catholic gospel attractive. What could be so great about the Catholic gospel if the majority of Catholics dont appear to be living it? Would you leave your 'spirit filled' community to join a modernist parish?

[thessalonian]

Very good post Myles. I can't access your blog here but look forward to reading it later. You raise some excellent points. I actually would say both our sins and theirs but I think we focus too much on theirs when that is the part we cannot do anything about. Your post addresses what we MUST do something about. We have to clean up our act. We must bring passion for our faith into our lives. We have to reach Catholics before we can reach them and we have to become better Catholics ourselves before we can do anything about any of this.

Edited March 2, 2006 by thessalonian

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Mar 2 2006, 11:51 AM']It can be big decision for a lifelong, active Protestant to become Catholic. It has many, many ramifications in terms of relationships and other areas ... and while those ramifications are, in a sense, temporal, they are nonetheless a big deal. If someone takes a while to count the cost before embarking on such a journey, I don’t fault them one bit. Evangelism is a great thing, but it’s important not to forget that we’re talking about people for whom conversion will have real consequences.
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"And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting." - Matthew 19:29

I think the main problems are:

- decline of family life. Why would I want to be Catholic if I'm not seeing a domestic church in most Catholic families?

- lack of charity. A lot of people leave the Church not for doctrinal reasons, but because someone hurt them. Then they go to nicer cushier Protestant churches where there is charity. Let us not forget that St. Francis de Sales was always overflowing with charity.

- protestants often perceive our liturgy as "boring" or "dead," partly because many Catholics have not been catechized well enough to actually KNOW what is going on at Mass. There are still a lot of Catholics who just go through the motions.

- lack of priests + religious

- spineless bishops + priests who are afraid to preach about hard doctrines, like contraception + homosexuality.

- the Catholic Church isn't making good use of today's media. Yeah, I know about EWTN and I watch it often, but let's just face it... they don't have the resources they need to be producing something really brilliant. The Passion was a wonderful work of cinematic art, but I don't see many other Catholics stepping up to the plate trying to make films with Catholic values. Most Catholics don't have the kind of budget to make films like the Passion, but the independent film industry isn't producing any decent Catholic films and I don't see any real Catholic presence there. Another problem with the Catholic film industry is that most of what we produce is lacking in quality and we've lost our sense of storytelling. There aren't enough Catholic radio stations, and the Catholic radio stations that do exist play lame music that even good Catholics wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.

- Catholics don't know enough about the Bible. How are we supposed to dialogue with sola scriptura protestants if the Bible isn't part our prayer life? Most Catholics haven't read the whole Bible, and few have even read a significant amount of it. Following the Sunday readings is not enough.

[Era Might]

God leads people on his time.

I was thinking today about my brother, who is a devout Protestant. In one sense, I'm happy that he is a believer at all. But I started to think about the Eucharist, and the Saints, and all the things I have in the Catholic Church. And like you said, it saddens me to know that he doesn't have this. The simple act of praying the Rosary, which I take for granted, I would be overjoyed if he could know the peace it gives.

But, Protestant communities need holy people too. Perhaps God permits some to continue in honest faith within a non-Catholic setting so that they can be an influence to those people, in one way or another.

"O the depths of the wisdom and the knowledge of God..."