Why don't protestants convert more easily?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Mar 2 2006, 11:51 AM']I'd love to see every Christian I know become Catholic. But do I think God can still save them if they don't become Catholic? Yes. It can be big decision for a lifelong, active Protestant to become Catholic. It has many, many ramifications in terms of relationships and other areas ... and while those ramifications are, in a sense, temporal, they are nonetheless a big deal.
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Well said.

We have to be careful about taking an "altar call" approach. The evangelical witness tends to emphasize a "moment" in which someone makes a decision. But conversion is a lifelong process. Just because someone does or doesn't make a decision at this moment is not the most important thing. We can plant a seed, and let God water it when the time is right.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 2 2006, 04:14 PM']Well said.

We have to be careful about taking an "altar call" approach. The evangelical witness tends to emphasize a "moment" in which someone makes a decision. But conversion is a lifelong process. Just because someone does or doesn't make a decision at this moment is not the most important thing. We can plant a seed, and let God water it when the time is right.
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Exactly.

Growing up Protestant, we were constantly encouraged to urge people towards making the "one saving decision" that would change the direction of their lives forever. That's how I always thought of conversion, as one big turn of my heart away from sin and toward God ... which never fit with my actual experience. That's why as a kid I prayed over and over and over to "receive Christ into my heart" ... I kept sinning, so I was sure my earlier decisions just hadn't properly taken.

Nowadays, I see conversion more as a process, my heart's long, slow turning toward righteousness and away from sin, and the small steps in learning how to love as God loves. I think in seeing that, my attitude on evangelization has changed. I'm not in it for the short term "one big decision" but for the long-term relationship -- encouraging growth and conversion (and being encouraged myself).

[Sojourner]

There's actually a really fascinating movie that deals with evangelization, [url="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0189584/"]The Big Kahuna[/url], with Kevin Spacey and Danny Devito. It's been a while since I watched it, but I found it to be quite thought-provoking.

[jswranch]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Mar 2 2006, 09:06 AM']I've been thinking alot about this and Revprodeji's thread caused me to post it.  1 Titus 10 says that God "desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth".  So why is it that this does not happen more often.  If God's grace is at work to bring this about our RCIA classes should be full.  But I am dissapointed every year at how few people are showing up in RCIA in the  two parishes I attend when there are so many people out there without the truths of the Catholic faith.  It saddens me.  St. Francis De Sales converted I believe it was nearly 60,000 in just a few years in a very Calvinist, anti-catholic town.  What is wrong here?

Thoughts?
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Look to the gospels. Jesus came with a hard message. Few accepted, most rejected (see Luke). These days the deposit of faith (held by the Catholic Church) may be too difficult for some to accept. So, they make up their own deposit of faith (new denominations).

To be fair, I find some Protestants more dedicated to their faith than those with whom I attend Sunday Mass.



[quote name='Lil Red' date='Mar 2 2006, 10:29 AM']lack of evangelization by faithful Catholics.
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I agree.
As I finish up RCIA, one critique I have is that the candidates/catecumens are not imbued with a sense of triumph/glory of the church in which they are called to share it. The 'holy cow, this is awsome!' just is not there.


To correct the situation, I am listening to a Paul Martin speach on sharing the faith (what to and not to do).

[heyyoimjohnny]

I think lack of evangelization sums it up. God 's certainly waiting to outpour the grace, but He likes to use people as channels of grace. Not so many channels of grace, not so much grace.

[desertwoman]

As a protestant studying the Catholic faith, it is a very hard decision to make to convert over to the universal church.

Protestants believe that we have the fullness of truth and that the Catholic Church has not. It is hard for a true Catholic to convert to Protestantism as it is for a Prostestant to convert to Catholicism because we both believe with our hearts that the truth lies here.

Me personally, as an African American and growing up in predominatly black churches in the south, I'm accustomed to a "certain" type of worship, and so are some other Evangelical denominations. It is a culture clash that makes us "bored" during Catholic ceromonies, and for it to be deemed as stale and lifeless. To adhere to a set way to worship and not to worship the way that is done in our separate traditions is a hard thing to break for it is part of our culture to be vocal and "on fire" for the Lord. To do anything otherwise would be like telling us we cant dance at our own wedding.

I also know one of the hardest reasons for conversion, in my part and also for other Protestants, is rugged individualism. To submit and follow what the Pope has decreed and the magistrium has found to be Biblicaly correct is a tough pill to swallow. Being raised to believe that everyone has a revelation that is for that one person and different for the next does hinder things. For example, I will read a scripture and get a "personal revalation" from it, while Bobby will read the same scripture and get his own revalation from it, and in our secta... this is all good! That instead of Christ revealing himself through scripture the same way everytime for he never changes, we personalize him to our own agenda. So the Christ revealed in scripture to me is different from Bobby because I could very well be leaning unto my own interpreation and not guided by the Holy Spirit.

And so when you ask any Protestant, including myself, if we know if we are leaning unto our own interpretation., it will be hard to explain, or at least for me to tell you otherwise.

Another thing is community. For me, when I go visit another church, there are greeters. They make me feel welcome and they want to hang out with me with different activities available through the church. I mean, almost every different church that I visited had a program or mission trip or actvity for people with different talents to particpate in. No one really had an excuse not to particpate in the daily activites of the church because there was something for everyone to do. Anyone could use the talent God gave them to give him praise and glory in his/her unique way.

In many black churches around the country we have testamonial servieces where we say what God has done in our lives. By hearing testamonies everyday and building intimate relationships with the members day to day, we can see how God is moving in each others lives. With us protestants, I guess we would like to know how God is moving in your life, for if God is moving in you lives, then we know that what you say is legit.


But those are a few reasons why Protestants, including myself, are harder to convert.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']I will read a scripture and get a "personal revalation" from it, while Bobby will read the same scripture and get his own revalation from it, and in our secta... this is all good!  That instead of Christ revealing himself through scripture the same way everytime for he never changes, we personalize him to our own agenda.  So the Christ revealed in scripture to me is different from Bobby because I could very well be leaning unto my own interpreation and not guided by the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

Fascinating . . . that actually clears up a little bit how Protestants can justify the thousands of denominations. . . the Bible is just a massive form of relativism. "That may be right for you, but it's not right for me."

*ponders*

Well . . . if that's the way the enemy's gonna shield his victims from the truth, then that's something we're gonna need to deal with . . . the question becomes "How?"

Edited March 4, 2006 by MagiDragon

[jswranch]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']
Protestants believe that we have the fullness of truth and that the Catholic Church has not. 

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This is not a fully correct statement. When Protestants agree the Catholic Church does not have the fullness of truth, it seems to be the only thing they agree on!!! When someone starts a sentence with "Protetants believe..." I usually stop them. Protestants agree on very little as a whole. That is why there are +30,000 denominations. Granted, the Presbyterian Church of America (PCA) looks a whole lot like the Presbyterian Church, United States of America (PCUSA) and the other 10 branches of Presbyterianism.



[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']
Me personally, as an African American and growing up in predominatly black churches in the south, I'm accustomed to a "certain" type of worship, and so are some other Evangelical denominations.  It is a culture clash that makes us "bored" during Catholic ceromonies, and for it to be deemed as stale and lifeless. 

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A further understanding of what the eucharist is, what it means, and the power of how the Holy Spirit has guided and protected the mass would greatly increase your interest vice boredem in 'Catholic Ceromonies.'

If you wish to do so, I suggest you begin a New Testiment gospel study of all the times Jesus mentions blood, wine, bread, body, flesh, food, and hunger.


[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']
To do anything otherwise would be like telling us we cant dance at our own wedding. 

...

I also know one of the hardest reasons for conversion, in my part and also for other Protestants, is rugged individualism.  To submit and follow what the Pope has decreed and the magistrium has found to be Biblicaly correct is a tough pill to swallow.  Being raised to believe that everyone has a revelation that is for that one person and different for the next does hinder things.  For example, I will read a scripture and get a "personal revalation" from it, while Bobby will read the same scripture and get his own revalation from it, and in our secta... this is all good! 

That instead of Christ revealing himself through scripture the same way everytime for he never changes, we personalize him to our own agenda.  So the Christ revealed in scripture to me is different from Bobby because I could very well be leaning unto my own interpreation and not guided by the Holy Spirit.

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As some prominent Protestant denominations have held that dancing is a blatent sin, you help aid my previous argument. There is little consensus on beliefs between various denominations. Either God forbids dancing or he does not. If dancing is an offense which damages our relationship with God, then it is an offense for all to dance. There is no relative morality. You may read the bible, pray, and find the Holy Spirit is leading you to believe it is just fine to dance at your wedding. Another person may read the bible, pray and find the Holy Spirit is leading them to believe God always finds dancing sinfull. Do you see the inconsistancy in this pattern? Apply this logic and design to two people who are weighing the decision to have an abortion or engage in
homosexual relations.



[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']
Another thing is community.  For me, when I go visit another church, there are greeters.  They make me feel welcome and they want to hang out with me with different activities available through the church.  I mean, almost every different church that I visited had a program or mission trip or actvity for people with different talents to particpate in. 

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I like greeters too. I wish our parish greeters were more gentile. However, with larger Catholic parishes (most parishes), it is too difficult do decide who is and who is not a visitor.

However, the kindness of the greeters does not define the truth an individual church professes. Either God dictated truth to Joseph Smith and the Mormons or he did not. The kindness of my good Mormon friends does not prove or disprove their faith.


[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']In many black churches around the country we have testamonial services where we say what God has done in our lives.  By hearing testamonies everyday and building intimate relationships with the members day to day, we can see how God is moving in each others lives.  With us protestants, I guess we would like to know how God is moving in your life, for if God is moving in you lives, then we know that what you say is legit.
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There are a number of black Catholic Churches. Check out

[url="http://www.usccb.org/saac/leadership.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/saac/leadership.shtml[/url] or [url="http://www.nbccongress.org/"]http://www.nbccongress.org/[/url]


to find a black catholic chruch see:
[url="http://www.nbccongress.org/aboutus/nbcc-regions/"]http://www.nbccongress.org/aboutus/nbcc-regions/[/url] or

These chruches are 100% Roman Catholic but may have a more 'evangelical' feel to them (gospel music, prolonged masses, livelier worship etc..)



[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 08:27 AM']But those are a few reasons why Protestants, including myself, are harder to convert.

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Pray that Jesus (and gulp! maybe Mary) lead you to the truth AND give you the strength necessary to follow that truth!

I hope this helps!

[Anastasia13]

Maybe disagreements about key salvic issues. The fate of a soul is not to be taken as lightly as even something as serious as reverence for Mary or the nature of the eucharist.

Desertwoman has some great points in her post.

Edited March 4, 2006 by Light and Truth

[desertwoman]

Thanks for the prayers.

It is a hard road, and I thank God that he has opened my heart to hear and recieve the message that yall are sending me. For in the past, I wouldnt have heard any of it. But now, he has bestowed upon me an open heart and mind. Thanks again for the prayers. I will post some of my thoughts tfor yall later.

[God the Father]

Near as I can figure, protestantism has less rules?

Of course I may be wrong, consdering I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[N/A Gone]

Yea, i have some issues here. major ones, but I will play with this tommorow. The whole concept of protestants not being saved, or that the titus verse has any relevence to them is in bad taste.

but im with my honey, so I will play with this tommorow night.

thes, we can box

[Maria]

I haven't read all the comments, but I do know that, having spoken/debated with a number of P/protestants over the years, I can sort of understand their point of view. Almost. In any case, it doesn't seem quite so obvious as it did before. It especially depends, I think, on the way questions are approched and discussed.

[Colin]

Hi there,
I have been enjoying reading through this thread, and thought perhaps to share a bit of my own history might help?
As a (Baptist) teenager, I read through the Old Testament prophets, and was overwhelmed by the love of God for his people. Even when they turnrd their backs on him, his love never gave up. Anyway, I felt like God shared some of that love with me, and when I graduated, I then spent 5 fulfilling years on the mission field. I got chronic hepatitus as a souveneer, and had to return to Australia with my wife and the first 2 of our now 4 children.
Here I was too sick to work, but passed the time happily studying for theology degrees, while my wife ran our church's street people ministry. About a year ago, I heard of a small mission school in Pakistan which needed house parents. Even though it seemed impossible, I felt God impress this need on my heart, and for about 3 months we discussed it as a family. My Bible readings when I read of the call were "if any one would be my disciple, let him deny himself, pick up his cross and follow me".
So, after 3 months, we realised we needed to make a decision by the end of the week, so we could have time to apply etc. That week, every fear I had seemed to both surface and be answered by God's word. I read a selection of Scriptures each day, so as to get through the Bible once a year, anyway, the first fear was simply that of leaving safe, quiet Australia for Pakistan. My reading that day was "I will keep your going out and your coming back". The next day, I wrestled with taking my 13 year old daughter to Pakistan, and my reading from Ezekiel included "I will bring your sons and your daughters to you". As my eldest son said, how many verses in the Bible specify daughters in them? The final day I simply had my health concerns. Lying in bed at noon, feeling very ill, I thought, "God, I feel you are calling us to Pakistan, but do you know where I am right now - sick in bed - how can I go?" That day's Psalm said, "before you think I know your thoughts, I know ... when you are sitting, lying down" Exactly what I needed to know! God knew exactly where I was, and what I was thinking, I could trust him to guide and care for me.
So, after prayer and discussion, we decided as a family this was God's will for us. Friends said we would never be accepted due to my health, but 6 months later we arrived in Pakistan. We have now been here 7 months, 7 difficult, demanding months where we have had to trust and call out to God. My health has improved dramatically, and my children are growing in faith.
We are told the glory of our faith is "Christ in you, the hope of Glory". God uses his word to speak to each of us differently as we need, as his will is different for each of us. It is a personal leading as he loves each of us personally.
Hope this helps some, God bless, Colin

[Paphnutius]

Thank you for sharing Colin, really. I did some missionary work in Honduras a year or so back and it is indeed a rewarding experience. You really get a feel for the early Church as you see people's eye light up with spiritual hunger and thirst as you speak about Christ. I can only imagine that is what the first apostles must have felt like when they received the first converts.

I believe I understand what you are saying about the week when God seemed to answer all your questions. Catholics are by no means opposed to the Bible speaking to each person differently in a subjective sense. This must happen because we each have different lives, different experiences, and so forth. When two people read the Scripture they will see and apply it in different ways because of their differences. The key there is apply. We do not believe that each person is his own magesterium, but that there is an objective interpretation to the Scriptures. Of course God may and does speak to us through the Scriptures and our experiences, but as far as dogmatic interpretations, there can only be one.

One person may read the exact same Scripture as the person next to him, but hear something different and apply it differently because of what is going on in his life at that moment. This does not, however, change the fact that when Paul or Isaiah said X, he meant X and not X to one person, Y to another person, and Z to yet another. So we do not really call it personal revelation so much as personal application of the one truth.

I would highly encourage you to look into the practice of Lectio Divina. It is a practice of reading and praying the Scriptures that has been in the Church for well over 1500 years. I think you might like it.

[Era Might]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Mar 4 2006, 10:27 AM']Me personally, as an African American and growing up in predominatly black churches in the south, I'm accustomed to a "certain" type of worship, and so are some other Evangelical denominations.  It is a culture clash that makes us "bored" during Catholic ceromonies, and for it to be deemed as stale and lifeless.  To adhere to a set way to worship and not to worship the way that is done in our separate traditions is a hard thing to break for it is part of our culture to be vocal and "on fire" for the Lord.  To do anything otherwise would be like telling us we cant dance at our own wedding.[right][snapback]902779[/snapback][/right]
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A book you might check out is "Evangelical Is Not Enough" by Thomas Howard. It's a look at Liturgical worship. Although Howard is now Catholic, he wrote the book when he was still Protestant.

[Peccator]

I for one do not believe we should be too hard on the Prots...in alot of respects we are were we are ONLY out of God's Grace (with a capital G).

I grew up Dutch Refomed and in a very anti-Catholic and racist enviroment....the only reason I even entered a Catholic Church was out of sheer curiousity and wanting to see whether it was really so evil as I heared. Imagion my surprise when I wanted to come back to the evening mass

In a nutshell, conversion is no easy matter for most people...it often( as it did me) an entire paradigm shift...which is often not very pleasant. Realising that you've been lied to, and the truth was under you nose the whole time...

Lets not be so hard on them...

Edited March 5, 2006 by Peccator

[Honour]

divorce

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Mar 2 2006, 09:06 AM']I've been thinking alot about this and Revprodeji's thread caused me to post it.  1 Titus 10 says that God "desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth".  So why is it that this does not happen more often.  If God's grace is at work to bring this about our RCIA classes should be full.  But I am dissapointed every year at how few people are showing up in RCIA in the  two parishes I attend when there are so many people out there without the truths of the Catholic faith.  It saddens me.  St. Francis De Sales converted I believe it was nearly 60,000 in just a few years in a very Calvinist, anti-catholic town.  What is wrong here?

Thoughts?
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[/quote] Protestants know what we believe, in general, and why, and are less likely to be duped. :

[dspen2005]

Prots begin with a fundamentally different anthropology than Catholics do. For the most part, Prots ascent to the notion that man is utterly depraved and corrupt. Catholics hold that our nature is 'profoundly wounded': there is clear and distinct difference in these two beginnings. When you begin at two radically different points, you will inevitably end up at two different junctures and endpoints.

This radical difference accounts for the difficulty in bring Prots to the Faith. Also, we have to understand that we can never wholly 'reason' ourselves to the Faith. At some point, we must have faith and acknowledge the truths of the Church's timeless teaching.