Was Jesus Born?

[Semalsia]

Here's something I've never really understood about Christianity. If Jesus was born 2000 years ago, then does that mean Jesus didn't exist before that? But isn't Jesus God? Or part of God. Or part of God's personality. Or something like that. Anyway, if Jesus didn't exist before he was born, then does that mean God changed when Jesus came to existence? Obviously no trinity could have existed if Jesus didn't either. But then again, isn't that impossible, if God is supposed to be unchangeable?

[dspen2005]

Jesus has existed before all time -- 'in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God'. In the human manifestation of God, Jesus was born 2000 years ago. FOr us, creatures, we think in a linear fashion -- but God is eternity -- there is no time with God. He simply 'is'.

[dspen2005]

to put it even better -- Good assumed our human nature, without any loss of his divinity, 2000 years ago.

[Fidei Defensor]

The Person of the Son (Jesus) has always existed as part of the Trinity. However, 2000 years ago, the Son became incarnate and took on human flesh. So Jesus has always existed, but he hasnt always existed as incarnate. His taking on of flesh is a unique event in the history of time.

[Semalsia]

So was being human a part of the nature of Jesus? That would mean human nature existed before it was created.

[Myles Domini]

Whoa whoa whoa people lets not be confused. Jesus has not always existed. The word 'Son' is not a biological designation it is a word that describes the eternal relationship between the Unbegotten Father and the begotten Word generated from him. The Word has existed before all the ages but He did not take on a human nature until 2000 years ago.

I recommend reading the letter of St Cyril of Alexandria, Doctor of the Incarnation, [url="http://www.monachos.net/patristics/christology/cyril_johnantioch.shtml"]to John of Antioch[/url] and his [url="http://www.monachos.net/patristics/christology/cyril_to_nestorius_2.shtml"]Second Epistle of Cyril to Nestorius[/url].

Edited March 4, 2006 by Myles

[Semalsia]

Jesus is a word that God spoke? And not God himself?

[Guest JeffCR07]

as John said, "the word [i]was[/i] God"

[Jaime]

Christ is fully human and fully divine.

The divine nature of Christ has always been. The human nature of Christ was born to Mary.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Mar 4 2006, 09:39 PM']Jesus is a word that God spoke? And not God himself?
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[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/103401.htm"]Sum.Theol. 1,34,1: Whether Word in God is a personal name?[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/103402.htm"]Sum.Theol.1,34,2: Whether "Word" is the Son's proper name?[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/103403.htm"]Sum.Theol.1,43,3: Whether the name "Word" imports relation to creatures?[/url]

Edited March 4, 2006 by Myles

[Semalsia]

Oh well, I guess this is just one of those things I will never understand.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Mar 4 2006, 11:09 PM']Oh well, I guess this is just one of those things I will never understand.
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Why? Everything you need to know was explained in the links provided by Sts Cyril and Aquinas. I dont see what you need to know that they did not cover?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
[quote][b]479[/b] At the time appointed by God, the only Son of the Father, the eternal Word, that is, the Word and substantial Image of the Father, became incarnate; without losing his divine nature he has assumed human nature.
[b]480[/b] Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.
[b]481[/b] Jesus Christ possesses two natures, one divine and the other human, not confused, but united in the one person of God's Son.[/quote]

[Semalsia]

[quote]Why? Everything you need to know was explained in the links provided by Sts Cyril and Aquinas. I dont see what you need to know that they did not cover?
[/quote]

There's a difference between knowing the answer and understanding it.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Mar 4 2006, 07:31 PM']There's a difference between knowing the answer and understanding it.
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If you fully understand God, he would not be God

[missionseeker]

This is from Catholic Christianity by Peter Kreeft.


[quote]  The Creed confesses that Jesus is both "concieved by the power of the Holy Spirt" and "born of the Virgin Mary" This one person has two natures: He is both fully human and fully divine.
  This is a mystery and a paradox, but not a logical contrdiction, not impossible. It is not one persons and two persons or one nature and two natures, but one person with two natures. Human nature itself contains a similar though not identical paradox. Each of us, though only one person, is both visible and invisible, tangible and intangible, material and spiritual at once by having both a body and a soul.
  "The unique and  altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and Part man, nor does it imply thathe is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He trulty became man while truly remaining God." (CCC464)
He is not half human and half divine as a centuar is half human and half horse, or as Mr. Spock on [i]Star Trek[/i] is half human and half vulcan. The Church that denied his full humanity (such ancient gnosticism or modern New Age versions of it) and all heresies that denied his full divinity (such as ancient Arianism or contemporay Modernism).  [/quote]

[dspen2005]

let me not understand that i may believe; let me believe so that i may understand

(Someone famous said this... or something similar to it)

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Let me see if I can help sort this out...

God the Father eternally begets the Son. This is not a biological generation, but our language, of course, fails to grasp the concepts of God.

God the Father eternally begets the Son by "speaking" forth Himself. Therefore, the Father speaks His own entire Being and the Son is that Eternal Word. Again, human language fails miserably to grasp the concept.

Because the Son is one-in-being with the Father (homoousios), they have the same Nature. The only distinction between them is one of relation. They are two Persons with the exact same nature, but one is the generator and one is the generated (i.e. Father and Son).

All was created through the Son.

When we fell, God sought to restore us and in the fullness of time, sent His Son to become man.

The Person of the Son of God took on human nature in its entirety, sans original sin.

At this point, having become man, the Son of God took on the human name "Jesus." Christ refers to His position as the anointed one, the Messiah.

This means that Jesus Christ has two natures which are hypostatically united.

One of the natures is the divine nature, that of the Son of God. The other is the human nature. However, the personal subject in Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The Son of God is the personal subject, the seat of all Jesus' personal actions.

Jesus Christ therefore has two natures:

Human intellect, human will, human soul, human body, etc. (everything proper to human nature).

Divine intellect, divine will, divinity, etc. (everything proper to divine nature).

Everything in Jesus' humanity was entirely and voluntarily submissive to the divinity.

There are not two persons working together in Jesus (which would forsake true unity), but one divine Person with a divine nature, all of which is "wrapped" in a human nature.

Finally, by incorporating the Church, which is His Body, He allows us to join with Him. Now, since He was raised from the dead and ascended, that would mean that His body went with Him, and since He associates the Church entirely with Himself, what happens is sort of (human language fails again) like what would be the case if He were to bear us all in Himself (and He does, but in a deeper sense than can be expressed) to God. Thus, in Him, we are restored, exalted to heaven, and brought into the love of the Holy Trinity, because as that love flows through Him, so in the same way, as we are united to Him (and, to an extent, in as much as we are united to Him), that love flows through us.

I suggest you read this: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=48426"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=48426[/url]

It's a bit long, just a chapter of a book, though. It covers a wide range of Christological heresies. Sometimes studying whom the Church says Christ [b]is not[/b] can help us understand Whom He [b]is[/b]

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Mar 4 2006, 09:05 PM']let me not understand that i may believe; let me believe so that i may understand

(Someone famous said this... or something similar to it)
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Both Sts. Anselm and Augustine said something like that. At the end of the first chapter of his [i]Prosologion[/i], Anselm says,

[quote]For I do not seek to understand so that I may believe; but I believe so that I may understand. For this also I believe, that 'unless I believe, I shall not understand.' [Isaiah 7:9][/quote]

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Quietfire]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Mar 5 2006, 10:58 AM']Let me see if I can help sort this out...

God the Father eternally begets the Son.  This is not a biological generation, but our language, of course, fails to grasp the concepts of God.

God the Father eternally begets the Son by "speaking" forth Himself.  Therefore, the Father speaks His own entire Being and the Son is that Eternal Word.  Again, human language fails miserably to grasp the concept.

Because the Son is one-in-being with the Father (homoousios), they have the same Nature.  The only distinction between them is one of relation.  They are two Persons with the exact same nature, but one is the generator and one is the generated (i.e. Father and Son).

All was created through the Son.[right][snapback]903345[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

And keep in mind that this is outside of time, so as not to confuse.
It wasnt as though the Father was there alone and decided to "have" a son.
As humans we must wait until we can have children.
Obviously, this is not the case with God. Where the Father is, the Son has always been and is. Where the Son is, the Holy Spirit has always been and is.

(and this can get even more confusing when you consider the word "where" and "when" are also a part of time.)

One didnt come before the others.
They are, all three, co-eternal.
Three Persons, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.
One nature, God.