Phatmass and hip-hop -- bad for evangelization?

[Dave]

How does one respond to the claim that it's a bad idea for Phatmass to evangelize by using Catholic hip-hop music and should stick to more "traditional" methods?

The people making these claims seem to think hip-hop is intrinsically bad and also that such a means of evangelization doesn't really help young people to grow in their faith.

Dust, are you out there? You'd know best how to answer that. But I'm opening the floor not just to Dust but to anyone. Thanks in advance.

[littleflower+JMJ]

anyone who says phatmass' way is bad for envangelization sure hasn't talked to any youth or been a youth minister, or hasn't turned on the radio or tv in the past 10 years to hear whats playing on the radio or channels lol

Phatmass focuses on an age group and youth who come from this area of hiphop music who feel their only answer is what the secular world has to offer them.

Do we leave these kids to this one alternative?

For awhile it was protestant hip-hop but even that failed them.

In fact, correct me if I"m wrong but thats whole reason phatmass hip-hop music was created because there was no alternative, something needed desperately

Phatmass leads them from the bad rap music to good Catholic hip-hop (with catholic lyrics, teaching them about the faith) while at the same time leading them to recognize the sacredness of the Church.. One of the thing that PM stresses is the fine line between them and always upholds the sacredness for the mass, etc. where there is a clear distinction between the two.

they have made the impossible an actual possible for catholic teens...something very difficult to do.

it seems like these ppl don't understand, nor have seen the whole picture of phatmass mission in action.

Phatmass makes orthodoxy and faithfulness to what the Church has to offer visible to youth who didn't know they had it in the first place.

I've seen it happen first hand, its successful and is definitely needed! Its alot of work, I'm sure any rapper and dUSt can tell you that but its a rare but very meaningful ministry that I know so many of us adults who have banging our heads against a brick wall to get our kids to see their faith and have been thankful for phatmass for that reason.

what I say to those who say it doesn't help them in their faith is that they are wrong in the sense that phatmass leads them to learning about the sacredness of the mass, latin, gregorian chant and adoration since hip-hop was merely a supplement, and not the solution

[musturde]

[quote name='Dave' date='Mar 5 2006, 07:37 PM']How does one respond to the claim that it's a bad idea for Phatmass to evangelize by using Catholic hip-hop music and should stick to more "traditional" methods? 

The people making these claims seem to think hip-hop is intrinsically bad and also that such a means of evangelization doesn't really help young people to grow in their faith.

Dust, are you out there?  You'd know best how to answer that.  But I'm opening the floor not just to Dust but to anyone.  Thanks in advance.
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St. Thomas (I'm pretty sure traditionalists respect him) believed that things aren't evil in themselves, the way people use things is evil. That can be applied to anything, including Phatmass' methods.

[Dust's Sister]

littleflower+jmj pretty much said everythng that needed to be said.

Today, teens listen to Hip Hop music... and I agree that a lot of hip hop music is bad, but when it comes to the CATHOLIC Lyrics, I see NOTHING wrong with it. I use to listen to the Hip Hop Stations, but now I only listen to the Christian stations, and I'm so thankful there is Catholic Hip Hop out there that I can listen to. Cuz I love Hip Hop, I just don't like the words nowadays.

[photosynthesis]

maybe these people need to actually listen to some real Catholic hip-hop and read the words, instead of going on their prejudices.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Dave' date='Mar 5 2006, 08:37 PM']How does one respond to the claim that it's a bad idea for Phatmass to evangelize by using Catholic hip-hop music and should stick to more "traditional" methods? 

The people making these claims seem to think hip-hop is intrinsically bad and also that such a means of evangelization doesn't really help young people to grow in their faith.

Dust, are you out there?  You'd know best how to answer that.  But I'm opening the floor not just to Dust but to anyone.  Thanks in advance.
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define traditional...
and have these people actually LISTENED to catholic rap??

[OLAM Dad]

I happen to think that rap is horrible (the 'music' style, not the rappers, per se). I also question its appropriateness for kids. I won't, for example, let my children listen to it, Catholic or no.

Honestly though I have not listened to much of it yet because none of my kids have expressed an interest in it. If they did, I would check it out (as much as it would pain me) and make the decision of whether or not they would be allowed to listen to it. I guess that makes me judgemental and close-minded. I'm cool with those labels.

Regardless, I think the rappers here are awesome Catholics and I don't question for a second the value that Phatmass provides. I even support Phatmass financially.

My point is that you have to separate the music from the message and the messengers. I happen to think that rap is bad music and I also happen to think that the hip-hop culture is generally bad for our youth. However, if some can make it work and use it to bring people to the faith, more power to them.

Edited March 6, 2006 by OLAM Dad

[Church Punk]

By using the hip-hop music and culture we are not just reaching to teens but to a whole demographic of people who would not have given a single thought to the Church due to sterotypical assumtions. This being inner city youth, gang bangers, and people who are hopless. The traditional Catholic Church does not appeal to them, they could care less about Gregorian Chant.

Why? because they do not understand it, nor will they take the time to understand it. However when we come down and meet them on their level, through the music they like, it inspires further thought and perhaps conversion. It lead people to an encounter with Christ. When people encounter Christ, lives are changed. Sinners repent.

Catholic hip-hop is real. Unlike many other mediums of deliving the message, rap is in your face presenting you with the message. What better message to spread than the Good News! Rap is unrestricted in the way that so much of a story, rhyme, or statement can be said in a short time. Even rock music can not deliver like this as many times metephors are required to make the music sound better.

So to speak when rapping the lyrisist can say exactly when they mean!

[dUSt]

[i]Built upon Solid Kephas, Unbreakable foundation with Christ’s presence
constantly in circulation, within the most Blessed Sacrament,
Body and Blood most miraculous, understand the love
how you think we carried it on?
every mass singing the psalms and giving honor to our blessed mother
our father, give us this day our daily bread,
you promised you’d be with us until our death bed
and yes we do believe it, your Church worldwide as you said
never ceasing, each of us is individually pieces
of the Mystical Body of Jesus participating in the ancient mass
why is it that the wafer makes these haters laugh
the wafer that contains the only path the Eucharist it is
the bread of life “the most precious” body of Christ that gives us life
the main appetizer and the churches sacrifice
on going for ever lasting now we know the prophecies came to pass
scripture was right and we have it, From Christ’s
12 apostles to the Pope and the Vatican, the truth flows everlasting
Flourishing Across the atlas, Roman Catholic
Shining light through the dark of sadness
with the sign of cross aiming at Satan’s madness[/i]

[b]- Akalyte, Catholic phatmass rapper[/b]

[dUSt]

Hip-hop is means of communication. It is true that out of all forms of music, hip-hop is the [b]best[/b] method of delivering a clear message. You simply cannot argue this fact. The method of delivering the lyrics is the most straight forward and efficient.

Now, I think a lot of people look at rap with a very narrow view, and it's not necesarily their fault. Most of the hip-hop out there is extremely negative, vulgar, and immoral... but so is rock and roll. You know the difference? Because rap delivers messages more clearly than rock, the immorality and vulgarity of rock songs isn't nearly as apparent--even though it is just as existent. What does that show you? If rap and rock are comparable in immorality, but [b]rap[/b] gets all the attention for it--if we flip that to the opposite--how much better is rap for delivering a [b]positive[/b] message?

No disrespect to Catholic rockers, but I think that even they'd admit that their ability to deliver a message like the one Akalyte delivers in his above verse for "Gates of Hell" would be extremely hard to do, given the format of rock music.

Just something to think about.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Dave' date='Mar 5 2006, 09:37 PM']How does one respond to the claim that it's a bad idea for Phatmass to evangelize by using Catholic hip-hop music and should stick to more "traditional" methods? 

The people making these claims seem to think hip-hop is intrinsically bad and also that such a means of evangelization doesn't really help young people to grow in their faith.

Dust, are you out there?  You'd know best how to answer that.  But I'm opening the floor not just to Dust but to anyone.  Thanks in advance.
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I'm guessing that you are in debate with some rad trads or borderline trads about this...

It would depend on your target audience... if your target audience is a Baptist that thinks all modern music is evil and of the Devil, then no, PM is not a good way to evangelize them. If your target audience includes young people who are into modern hip hop and pop music, then PM is an excellent way to evangelize to them.

We should evangelize on the other person's terms of understanding, not our own... As the Apostle Paul states...

[b]1 Corin. 9:20 [/b]
To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law--though I myself am not under the law--to win over those under the law.
[b]21 [/b]To those outside the law I became like one outside the law--though I am not outside God's law but within the law of Christ--to win over those outside the law.
[b]22 [/b]To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.
[b]23 [/b]All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Dave' date='Mar 5 2006, 09:37 PM']How does one respond to the claim that it's a bad idea for Phatmass to evangelize by using Catholic hip-hop music and should stick to more "traditional" methods? 

The people making these claims seem to think hip-hop is intrinsically bad and also that such a means of evangelization doesn't really help young people to grow in their faith.

Dust, are you out there?  You'd know best how to answer that.  But I'm opening the floor not just to Dust but to anyone.  Thanks in advance.
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St. Katherine Drexel comes to mind. Most of the people who considered themselves "civilized" avoided the Native American and African American populations because they considered them uncivilized, unruly, criminal-minded, etc. Because of this, they largely avoided evangelizing them. However, St. Katherine saw that they were made in the image of God and that anything a person could justly have against them would only be precisely [b]because[/b] they hadn't been evangelized. So she went among them, learned to live with them, even though she herself was very wealthy. "To those outside the law I became like one outside the law--though I am not outside God's law but within the law of Christ--to win over those outside the law" (1 Corinthians 9:21). She knew as St. Paul did that in order to restore people, we must become like them in all things but their sin, and thus show them the way (which, of course, images Christ and cooperates with Him, although she did not die to redeem them). "Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible" (1 Corinthians 19).

Anyone who denies this method denies the method of the Incarnation.

Christ, however, did not take on sinful flesh, and neither should we take on the sins of those we wish to convert...which begs the question...is rap sinful? The answer is simply: no, not intrinsically. Is there a lot of rap that is sinful? Yes. Is all rap, by it's very nature, sinful? No. Are we supposed to Christianize things which are commonly used for sin but are not in themselves sinful? You ask the rad trads that...ask them about the liturgical calendar and the feasts...ask them about any number of the other things the fundamentalists always accuse us of.

If they deny the Incarnational method of conversion, they deny themselves.

[Brother Adam]

I think if the only Catholics I had contact with was 'fisheaters' catholics. I would still be a raging foaming at the mouth anti-catholic fundamentalist.

Edited March 6, 2006 by Brother Adam

[cmotherofpirl]

1 Corin. 9:20

If you can't reach them, you can't convert them.

OLAM have you listened to PM radio?

[Dave]

Thanks for your comments, everyone. But just for the record, the people I'm referring to are NOT rad-trads.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Dave' date='Mar 6 2006, 11:54 AM']Thanks for your comments, everyone.  But just for the record, the people I'm referring to are NOT rad-trads.
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Well, it works either way. :

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Mar 6 2006, 10:52 AM']OLAM have you listened to PM radio?
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No, I haven't listened to PM radio. Like I said, I don't like rap. I have listened to some Catholic rap in the past, Fr. Stan and others on Life on the Rock.

[jezic]

well if people want to sing gregorian chant and distribute albums of it on here, i think it would be well received by Dust and the community.

p.s. i think it would be awesome as well.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Mar 6 2006, 11:21 AM']No, I haven't listened to PM radio.  Like I said, I don't like rap.  I have listened to some Catholic rap in the past, Fr. Stan and others on Life on the Rock.
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That mostly is not good rap. Orthodox yes, but very cheesy.

[Donna]

"Anyone who denies this method denies the method of the Incarnation."

My Lord! Raphael, that's incredible.
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PS: dUSt, the reason the rapper can get more INFORMATION across is because it takes less time to speak than to sing.
There is a time and place for that, I think.
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OLAM dad: consider checking out some of the h/h music here - maybe if only to know what it is NOT.

I suspect you believe it's not musical, but I've been surprised that it is. H/H is not my cup of tea and I'm in no mood to debate the "does it appeal to the lower or higher passions thing" which not only trads but "the generation before" tend to label newer forms of music. Sick to death of that topic (rant over, my is-shoe, not yourn).

Actually, I like h/h because it always has something humerous, can be quite emphatic and virile in giving reality checks, and the musical surprises and arrangements can often be sophisticated.

BUT: I tend to restrain myself re: music. Even when a pagan, I was aware of what certain dances or moves were not OK with me to do, or to watch. So, this I refrain from doing and don't connect with music that way right now.

That makes me sound like a snob - I don't mean it that way but this: H/H is not usually a stupid AABA song-form with way-too-boring progressions like much of commercial pop forms including rock, and certainly is NOT like overkilled banal love songs and effiminate @#&%% tripe which drives musicians to begin writing their own stuff if only to save their sanity.

And PS, I'm over 40 w/ a houseful of children

Edited March 6, 2006 by Donna