Protestant Communion

[Jake Huether]

JasJis,

As soon as I posted that, I thought someone might say something. But I left it nonetheless

Indeed, I do believe the Eucharist to be the "most important" part of the Mass. I couldn't find the right word to substitute for "sole". But it does border on being the "sole" purpose, since it is the "Sacrifice" of the Mass that we, like Christ, so eagerly await.

So borderline in fact that St. Paul doesn't make mention of the litugy of the Word, only that the Corinthians are not meeting (as they should) for the Lord's Supper.

My point I guess was simply that according to Scripture there are no "meetings" that exclude the Eucharist, Communion if you will. When Protestants meet there is a great percentage of meetings that exclude communion. This is not Scriptural. So, if they claim the Bible to be the sole source for their faith, belief, and all practices - then why are they skipping communion in their meetings?

[Anna]

Dearest Nathan,

I'm quite certain that you stated the Catholic Teaching flawlessly. :wub: And I thank you for doing so. As Christians, even when our most sacred Sacraments are derided by non-believers, we should not stoop to their level and demean their practices, even though we understand such practices to be based on error and misinterpretation of Scripture.

The Church would never advise us to do so, and doesn't exemplify us doing so. (May I say, unlike the shepherds of many other denominations? )

I was simply posting the logical dilemma that occurs when this particular Baptist congregation comes to the conclusion that there is "danger" in receiving unworthily.

Where do they get this idea that receiving holy communion could be hazardous to one's spiritual health? From Scripture!

So, why would Scripture say this?

If they read and think about it, there is only One logical answer: This Ordinary Bread and Ordinary Cup are only ordinary in appearance! There is real supernatural power in them! For if we eat it unworthily, we are in danger of losing our souls for all eternity!!!!!! Scripture says so!!!

This Baptist lady is just thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis close to figuring out the logical conclusion: Jesus meant what He said literally, when He said "This is My Body, This is My Blood."

Wow.

If only we could post on the Baptist Board and help her to see the Truth.

Pax Christi. <><

Edited July 24, 2003 by Anna

[hyperdulia again]

i still say it IS just a cracker regardless of what they believe about it.

[IcePrincessKRS]

While I agree with Anna and Friday that we shouldn't demean the "communion" other religions practice, I would like to add that to some of them do consider it just wine/grape juice and bread/cracker.

My grandmother is Episcopalain, and when I was about 14 she told me about a service that she had gone to with my cousin Robert, who was about 5. (I think it may have been Christmas or Easter, actually. ) She told me that she had let Robert go up and receive communion. I was suprised, my brother Michael is the same age as Robert, and we all know as Catholics we don't receive First Holy Communion until we're about 7. I expressed my suprise and said something along the lines of "wow, he's kind of young isn't he? I didn't make my First Communion until I was 7." And Grandma replied, "Well he knows its only bread and wine, and since he understands that its ok." I still remember to this day thinking, "Not in my Church!" but not responding to her comment.

[Jake Huether]

Anna?

C'mon Katie, she's MAMMA to you.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Anna?

C'mon Katie, she's MAMMA to you. 

Yeah, but not everyone realizes that, so when talking about serious stuff on here I call her "Anna" so they know who I'm talking about.

[God Conquers]

How deep can a protestant go in their worship? If the Lord's Supper is just symbolic, how does it bring us any closer together as a community than sitting cross-legged and singing Kumbaya?

I recently went to a big Christian Music festival where delerious? was playing as the main act. Some people consider them the "best" worship band. (I do not, but that's besides the point.) As they were playing (they are quite good) I had to take a step back for a moment. I realized that, for most of the people present, this was it. Singing along live while the most "in" worship band was playing on stage is as deep as their worship of Christ goes. Singing a Bible verse is the most they can get out of Christianity. I was sad. I hope this isn't entirely true, but it was definately the impression I had at the time.

We can worship Christ PHYSICALLY present, then consume Him, physically uniting ourselves to Him in a union which mimics the Trinity. Christ allows us to go that deep. Why sell ourselves short of that?

[Anna]

God Conquers,

You are soooooooooooooo right.

A couple of years ago, my husband's gramma died at the age of 99 years. She had been a member of the Church of the Nazarene.

At the funeral service, her pastor stood and said a few consoling words, led in a prayer, and then invited anyone who wished to come forward and say a few things about gramma.

Then, it was over.

As we left, my eldest daughter said, "That is the saddest funeral I've ever attended." Not because it was her dear great grandmother, but because it had no spiritual depth whatsoever.

A funeral Mass is so moving that your very soul is moved. While physically and emotionally aching, the soul is stirred to new heights of hope for departed, trust in God's mercy, and anticipation of the day we may be united in heaven with all the angels and saints. It's like the fifteen decade rosary all at once: joyful, sorrowful, and glorious! (And luminous, too!)

Pax Christi. <><

[Good Friday]

May the love of Christ be with you God Conquers, Hyper, et al:

I didn't mean to imply that the Protestant communion is anything other than bread and wine. It certainly is not the Body and Blood of Our Lord, and so of course it is not the Eucharist. What I was trying to say was that I didn't think it was appropriate or constructive to call it a cracker and grape juice, which falsely reduces their practice to a mid-worship snack. And I also thought we should give some thought as to what they believe about it. Many people assume, as God Conquers did, that the Protestant communion has little or no meaning to them. That's simply not true, and I don't think we should misrepresent what they believe.

Neither the Holy Father nor the Second Vatican Council seems to think that the Protestant communion is just a mid-worship snack. I'll repeat the quote that I posted before:

The Ecclesial Communities separated from us lack that fullness of unity with us which should flow from Baptism, and we believe that especially because of the lack of the sacrament of Orders they have not preserved the genuine and total reality of the Eucharistic mystery. Nevertheless, when they commemorate the Lord's death and resurrection in the Holy Supper, they profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and they await his coming in glory. Emphasis mine.

As much as we may be inclined to reduce the Protestant communion to a mid-worship snack, the teaching of the reigning Pope and of an Ecumenical Council does say that "when they commemorate the Lord's death and resurrection in the Holy Supper, they profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and they await his coming in glory."

I don't mean to harp on this, and I'm not trying to argue with anyone, but I don't think it's a good idea to misrepresent the beliefs of our separated brothers and sisters. We can't expect them to stop calling the Eucharist our "wafer god" while we continue to reduce their communion to a mid-worship snack. Neither insult is necessary, and both are false.

Edited July 25, 2003 by Good Friday

[hyperdulia again]

Most Protestants that I know disagree with HH and V2 on this matter, they really do think of it as a mid-worship snack, but if any protestant here doesn't I say to you: the Catholic Church doesn't think your "Communion" is a mid-worship snack, I do. And if you find that offensive I apologise and fall humbly to your feet begging pardon.

[Good Friday]

I agree with you, Hyper, to an extent. I think you're right that most Protestants don't think much about communion, but that's not the teaching of most of their churches. I'm going to post a separate thread in a second with the actual teachings of some of the Protestant churches regarding their communion. Many individual believers don't believe these things, but the actual churches can't be held accountable for that. There are many alleged Catholics who believe there should be female priests or that the Mass should be done in Swahili. We don't hold our Church accountable for that, we hold the individuals accountable for it. I think the same should be done with the Non-Catholic Christian churches.

But yeah, I think you're right, there are a lot of Protestants who don't think much of their communion. My grandfather, for instance, goes to the church of Christ. I don't think he gives much thought to communion... I know I didn't when I went there. But the church of Christ's official position is that communion is how the Holy Father described it for Non-Catholic Christians.

My point is that we shouldn't misrepresent other Christians' official positions, even if there are members of those churches that don't give much thought to communion.

[God Conquers]

You're right Good Friday, we shouldn't misrepresent what they believe in respect to the Lord's Supper. I was just voicing my sadness at the MOST they can believe, which falls so much short of what Christ offers us.

[mustbenothing]

(Jake Huether) My question is: If it is merely symbolic (i.e. just a piece if bread), then what's the danger.

(Me) Excellent point. I think that the only way the Baptists can try to worm out of this one is to say that there is no danger in the elements themselves, but God will curse those who partake unworthily.

(Jake Huether) Furthermore, another poster brought up the totally true fact that EVEN members within the congregation might be recieving communion "unworthily". So then, what, to Baptists is "unworthy".

(Me) Paul indicates that members of the congregation partaking unworthily heap condemnation upon themselves:

1 Corinthians 11:27-30

27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.

30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

(Jake Huether) Another thing I caught was that several of them held communion at different intervals (?). Like one lady said they have it every 5th Sunday. Some have it quarterly. Others bi-weekly.

(Me) My (Presbyterian Church in America) church has Communion every week. John Calvin said that we should observe the Lord's Supper at least once a week in The Institutes.

(hyperdulia again) why call it communion? what are they communing with? a cracker?

(Me) Like Roman Catholics, Baptists tend to see the Lord's Supper as an offering to God. Therefore, they see themselves as communing with God.

(hyperdulia again) They don't recieve communion. They eat bread and drink grape juice it doesn't matter if they do it every day.

(Me) Most all current Baptists do, but a few decades (and certainly a century) earlier you would see wine. My church uses unleavened bread and wine.

(Paladin D) You know what's pretty amazing? Jack Chick claims the "IHS" on the supposed "death cookie" are the inititals of the eygptian trinity or something.

(Me) Isis, Horus, and Seth, I think. It's a terrible idea presented by an anti-intellectual "scholar," and now popularly spread by Chick.

(benedict_x) Didja guys know that "IHS" means iota, eta, sigma?

Its the first three letters of the Greek spelling of Jesus.

Just thought I might contribute sumthin.

(Me) I had never pieced that together. Thanks for the information.

(God Conquers) How deep can a protestant go in their worship? If the Lord's Supper is just symbolic, how does it bring us any closer together as a community than sitting cross-legged and singing Kumbaya?

(Me) Please don't lump all Protestants into that group. The symbolic position was almost unheard-of during the actual Reformation. It is a modern error propagated by fundamentalists, especially Baptists, because of an improperly proportioned response to Roman Catholicism.

(God Conquers) I recently went to a big Christian Music festival where delerious? was playing as the main act. Some people consider them the "best" worship band. (I do not, but that's besides the point.) As they were playing (they are quite good) I had to take a step back for a moment. I realized that, for most of the people present, this was it. Singing along live while the most "in" worship band was playing on stage is as deep as their worship of Christ goes. Singing a Bible verse is the most they can get out of Christianity. I was sad. I hope this isn't entirely true, but it was definately the impression I had at the time.

(Me) Delirious? is a Charismatic/Pentecostal group that is also popular among contemporary Roman Catholic youth/college groups. Having been raised in such an emotionalistic/shallow tradition, I am extremely disappointed in that kind of "worship" music. It is vacant. I much prefer the excellent hymnody and psalter provided for us historically.

(Good Friday) didn't mean to imply that the Protestant communion is anything other than bread and wine. It certainly is not the Body and Blood of Our Lord, and so of course it is not the Eucharist.

(Me) The Roman interpretation of John 6 would indicate that a person must take the Eucharist in order to be saved, and you here indicate that Protestants do not take the Eucharist. How, then, can Ut Unum Sint claim that some Protestants are saved? This looks like a glaring contradiction.

(Good Friday) think you're right that most Protestants don't think much about communion, but that's not the teaching of most of their churches.

(Me) Absolutely, and it's an error that I hope is corrected soon.

[ReformationNow]

A lady on the Baptist board mentioned that her congregation only has "closed" communion, meaning only the Baptists at her congregation can recieve it.  Her explenation was that "There is a danger in taking communion unworthily."

My question is:  If it is merely symbolic (i.e. just a piece if bread), then what's the danger.

Furthermore, another poster brought up the totally true fact that EVEN members within the congregation might be recieving communion "unworthily".  So then, what, to Baptists is "unworthy".

Another thing I caught was that several of them held communion at different intervals (?).  Like one lady said they have it every 5th Sunday.  Some have it quarterly.  Others bi-weekly.

Who determines how often communion is taken?  And on what basis?

The Catholic Church recieves communion, necessarily, every Sunday (as was done by the Apostles).  In fact, St. Paul makes mention of their weekly "breaking of bread".  And the early Church likewise is documented to have held Holy Communion weekly.  So, how do Protestants, who are so adiment about literal Scripture interpritations, justify this bi-weekly, or quarterly stuff?

Help me out?  I'm confussed. 

Hmmmm...I don't even know how often my church has it...maybe once or twice a year. Personally, I think it should be every time the church gets together(I thought that before I came here). And before you say 'but if you think it's symbolic...' well...I just ain't to sure what I think about it right now.

[Thomas Michael]

My wife goes to a Church of Christ. Most churches in that denomination, like hers, do a communion service every week. The few times I attended services with her, they used matzo crackers and grape juice.

[rachael]

they are just a load of carp in my opinion :)

[Thomas Michael]

Well, I'm certainly not gonna tell my wife THAT. :P

[dUSt]

I agree.

[Mickey's_Girl]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Jul 25 2003, 01:36 AM'] Most Protestants that I know disagree with HH and V2 on this matter, they really do think of it as a mid-worship snack, but if any protestant here doesn't I say to you: the Catholic Church doesn't think your "Communion" is a mid-worship snack, I do. And if you find that offensive I apologise and fall humbly to your feet begging pardon. [/quote]
I appreciate the apology...but what Protestants do you know? I've never heard anyone talk about Communion like that, and I've been around Protestants my whole life. ??

I find that hard to believe...unless you don't know many Protestants sincere about their faith. That's quite possible, of course...just like many Protestants know few Catholics who are sincere about theirs. Prime breeding grounds for misunderstandings!

Good thing we have Phatmass! ;-)

MG

[Dusty Fro]

Let me clear some things up for you. I am not Catholic. I am not Baptist, but I attend a Baptist church while I'm at college. My church has communion once a month. We take communion in rememberance of Jesus' sacrifice, just like He said in the Bible. I do believe that the Holy Spirit is present during communion, and that "communion" is our communion with God, being in his presence in this important ritual of remembrance.
Baptists use grape juice because of Baptist qualms about alcohol, that's all. Plenty of Protestant churches use wine. The body of Christ is represented by bread or cracker, it varies church to church.

When we have communion at my church, we ask that only people who have accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior participate in communion. We want to preserve the sanctity of communion by having all of the participants fully accepting the body and blood of Christ. If they don't believe and accept it, then it WOULD just be bread and juice, but it's not, not to me. It's the same thing you do in Catholic Mass, and I respect the Catholic churches wishes by not partaking.