Private Revelation

[Era Might]

In Mother Angelica's biography, Fr. Groeschel comments on Mother's "visions" (for example, she claims to have seen St. Michael many times). He says that he doesn't think they're real apparitions, but they're not delusions either. They're part of a "pious imagination" that is rooted in the spiritual life. This accounts for a lot of the visions of the Saints, which often contradict one another. They aren't necessarily actual visits from the Lord or others, but moreso spiritual imagery.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Era Might

[HisChild]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 15 2006, 09:37 AM']Although the Catholic equivalents of Jack Van Impe and Tim Lahaye scare the heck out of me. 
[right][snapback]912305[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Excuse my ignorance but who is Jack Van Impe? Sounds like a demon (Impe ) Is he one of those 'bible prophecy' dudes?

And do you mean, when they 'scare' you, that they are fruity? Or they have credence?

[Era Might]

[quote name='PCPA2Be' date='Mar 15 2006, 11:41 AM']Excuse my ignorance but who is Jack Van Impe?  Sounds like a demon (Impe   )  Is he one of those 'bible prophecy'  dudes?

And do you mean, when they 'scare' you, that they are fruity?  Or they have credence?
[right][snapback]912311[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Jack Van Impe is the walking Bible. He thinks the return of Jesus will happen any time now.

I actually like JVI. He's a little crazy, but he and his wife are loveable. And even though his interpretations of Catholicism are whacked, he is VERY friendly to Catholicism, always quoting the Catechism.

I'm thinking of the Spirit Daily devotees, who see apparitions behind every corner. They're harmless, but obviously, they have an, um, over-zealous attention to private revelation claims.

Also people who concoct wild conspiracy theories about Fatima, claiming that John Paul covered it up, etc. These ones aren't harmless.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Era Might

[Brother Adam]

Welp. I'm confused. I understand everything that has been said. It just seems conflicting.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 15 2006, 11:20 AM']Yes, because the Church does not judge a private revelation [b]authentic[/b]. She simply ensures its doctrinal fidelity and opens it up for the pious adherence of the faithful.

The Church does not teach "Fatima is a legitimate apparition". Rather, she says "Fatima seems to be a message from God. After examining it, we will open it for public devotion." But that devotion is never compulsory.
[right][snapback]912291[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Umm, yes the Church does deem private revelations "authentic". Read the Catechism.

Though you are correct that adherence to them only demands human faith, not divine faith. Private revelations are not dogma.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 15 2006, 09:51 AM']Welp. I'm confused. I understand everything that has been said. It just seems conflicting.
[right][snapback]912325[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Please clarify. : In what way. I see no conflict and feel none in my practice regarding marian apparitions with what was spoken. If you follow my posts in the other thread on the apologetics section I made most of these points though not so eloquently.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Mar 15 2006, 11:55 AM']Umm, yes the Church does deem private revelations "authentic". Read the Catechism.

Though you are correct that adherence to them only demands human faith, not divine faith. Private revelations are not dogma.
[right][snapback]912334[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

No, she doesn't. She declares that a private revelation is likely authentic, and thus, worthy of belief. But she takes no formal stance herself, as a Magisterium.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Era Might

[Era Might]

The Catechism says:

[quote]the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. [/quote]

The "Sense of the Faithful" discerns whether a private revelation is "an authentic call of Christ', not the Magisterium. The Magisterium's role is to make sure that a proposed revelation does not conflict with the Deposit of Faith, which she safeguards.

[cmotherofpirl]

Nobody is requiring you to say a rosary or visit Fatima to be catholic. Its not like belief in the trinity or transubstaniation. However, the Church says the appariations did happen, are authentic, and it if helps your faith journey - all well and good.
I don't see anything in church teachings that says you can decide on your own that they really didn't happen or are not worthy of belief. That would be crossing a line

[Era Might]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Mar 15 2006, 12:06 PM']I don't see anything in church teachings that says you can decide on your own that they really didn't happen or are not worthy of belief.
[right][snapback]912349[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

It depends what you mean by "worthy of belief".

When the Church declares a private revelation "worthy of belief", she does not say it actually happened. Rather, she says that there are no doctrinal or moral impediments to public revelation.

In this sense, the Church has authority, because the judgement is not about the revelation itself, as a revelation, but about its conformity to the Deposit of Faith.

However, the question of whether it is even a true (or "authentic") Revelation is not something for the Church to say. She only says whether it can be prudently believed. She does not teach one way or the other whether it really happened or not, although she does propose it for the faithful, sometimes even through the Sacred Liturgy.

The Church exercises human faith by saying "we judge that this is likely an authentic call from Christ, and we will honor it". But again, this is very different from actually saying it IS a real call from Christ.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Era Might

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 15 2006, 12:04 PM']The Catechism says:
The "Sense of the Faithful" discerns whether a private revelation is "an authentic call of Christ', not the Magisterium. The Magisterium's role is to make sure that a proposed revelation does not conflict with the Deposit of Faith, which she safeguards.
[right][snapback]912347[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
The Bishop approves an Apparition (and the Bishop is a part of the Magisterium.

And the bishop approves the [i]authenticity [/i]of an Apparition.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 15 2006, 10:04 AM']The Catechism says:
The "Sense of the Faithful" discerns whether a private revelation is "an authentic call of Christ', not the Magisterium. The Magisterium's role is to make sure that a proposed revelation does not conflict with the Deposit of Faith, which she safeguards.
[right][snapback]912347[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


One cannot separate the sensus fidelium from the Magisterium as you have done here. Having said that I agree with your distinction regarding the role of the Magesterium in safegaurding the deposit of the faith.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Mar 15 2006, 12:10 PM']The Bishop approves an Apparition (and the Bishop is a part of the Magisterium.

And the bishop approves the [i]authenticity [/i]of an Apparition.
[right][snapback]912363[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

He approves the public adherence to its authenticity, that is, he declares that it is credible, and may be believed.

He does not teach that it actually happened, only that it can be prudently believed that it did happen, and venerated publicly.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Mar 15 2006, 10:10 AM']The Bishop approves an Apparition (and the Bishop is a part of the Magisterium.

And the bishop approves the [i]authenticity [/i]of an Apparition.
[right][snapback]912363[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

"Likely authenticity" is in fact what the Catechism states. I think that is the distinction Era is drawing.

Edited March 15, 2006 by thessalonian

[Era Might]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Mar 15 2006, 12:10 PM']One cannot separate the sensus fidelium from the Magisterium as you have done here.  Having said that I agree with your distinction regarding the role of the Magesterium in safegaurding the deposit of the faith.
[right][snapback]912364[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

The faithful never constitute the Magisterium. The Magisterium receives the witness of the faithful, but they can never be confused or conflated.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 15 2006, 12:12 PM']He approves the public adherence to its authenticity, that is, he declares that it is credible, and may be believed.
[right][snapback]912367[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
No, he declares that the Apparition is "of supernatural origin" (or not, or maybe)

constat de supernaturalitae (I think), non constat de supernaturalitae, and constat non de supernaturalitae

...and when the Bishop (part of the Magisterium) gives it the go ahead, he's not saying "probably"... that's one of the middle choices.

[Era Might]

From the citation Thess gave:

[quote]This judgment is possible when there is evidence of supernatural phenomena, sound doctrine, moral probity, mental health and sound piety of the seer(s) and enduring good fruits among the faithful.[/quote]

He declares that there is "evidence" of supernatural origin, not that it is in fact of supernatural origin.

[Era Might]

Look, we can go back and forth on the minutae.

The main point is that no Catholic has to believe in a private revelation. So if you don't believe in Fatima, you don't have to go to confession.

That's the important thing.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 15 2006, 10:13 AM']The faithful never constitute the Magisterium. The Magisterium receives the witness of the faithful, but they can never be confused or conflated.
[right][snapback]912371[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

After further checking I retract my statement.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Mar 15 2006, 12:18 PM']Look, we can go back and forth on the minutae.

The main point is that no Catholic has to believe in a private revelation. So if you don't believe in Fatima, you don't have to go to confession.

That's the important thing.
[right][snapback]912376[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
lol..

but then you wouldn't even be offering "human faith" in the approval of the Church?