For Cam especially...

[Cam42]

[quote name='Tarcisius' date='Mar 26 2006, 06:31 PM']Im not tryin to play word games with you, I answered the questions, I showed you where Rome says they are in comunion, I aswered the excom statement. You continually ignore the important few lines that I posted and try to scare me off with bully tactics, i dont care about winning an argument or anything else but the truth, you seem to care about keeping your SSPX predjudices justified.
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No you didn't. You gave the opinion of one prelate. I don't continually ignore anything.

I am not prejudiced against the SSPX. That is an ad hominem. Shall I post the Motu Proprio for you? I think I shall....

[quote name='Ecclesia Dei #3']In itself, this act was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act. In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops on 17 June last, Mons. Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law.[/quote]

I think that speaks directly to the archbishop and to the bishops he consecrated. They are excommunicated.

[quote name='Ecclesia Dei #4']The root of this schismatic act can be discerned in an incomplete and contradictory notion of Tradition. Incomplete, because it does not take sufficiently into account the living character of Tradition, which, as the Second Vatican Council clearly taught, "comes from the apostles and progresses in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. There is a growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on. This comes about in various ways. It comes through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts. It comes from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which they experience. And it comes from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth".

But especially contradictory is a notion of Tradition which opposes the universal Magisterium of the Church possessed by the Bishop of Rome and the Body of Bishops. It is impossible to remain faithful to the Tradition while breaking the ecclesial bond with him to whom, in the person of the Apostle Peter, Christ himself entrusted the ministry of unity in his Church.[/quote]

And this speaks directly to the idea of Tradition that I spoke of previously. And what kind of act is this defined as, according to the Pontiff? A schismatic act. This is not prejudice, this is the truth.

While the adherents are not excommunicated, the priests who are ordained are suspended and excommunicated, upon ordination. They have no faculties to function as priests under the local Ordinary.

[quote name='Ecclesia Dei #5c']In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church's law.[/quote]

This speaks directly to my statement above. And this applies to all Catholics, even those who attend the SSPX chapels. (Hmmmm......I wonder why they are called chapels and not parishes? Oh yeah, that is because they don't have jurisdiction.)

[quote name='Ecclesia Dei #5a']The outcome of the movement promoted by Mons. Lefebvre can and must be, for all the Catholic faithful, a motive for sincere reflection concerning their own fidelity to the Church's Tradition, authentically interpreted by the ecclesiastical Magisterium, ordinary and extraordinary, especially in the Ecumenical Councils from Nicaea to Vatican II. From this reflection all should draw a renewed and efficacious conviction of the necessity of strengthening still more their fidelity by rejecting erroneous interpretations and arbitrary and unauthorized applications in matters of doctrine, liturgy and discipline.[/quote]

So, how do you reconcile your feeble position with that of Holy Mother Church and the Vicar of Christ, Tarcisius? If you have some holy insight into the inner workings of the Church that the Holy Father, his bishops and the scores of theologians (myself included) don't, please enlighten us.

[Dave]

[quote name='Tarcisius' date='Mar 26 2006, 01:04 PM']The Cardinal says they are in communion. Rome says that if you doubt the validity of the NO, do not attend. Rome says that those who attend an SSPX Mass without a schismatic attitude are fine.
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1. The Cardinal says no such thing.

2. Rome says that if you doubt the validity of the NO, then you commit heresy and schism.

3. Those who attend an SSPX Mass are NOT fine. It doesn't matter whether they have a "schismatic attitude" or not; objectively speaking they're being an accessory to the sin of schism.

[brendan1104]

Ok Dave. Would like to reference and further support /prove your claims? I didn't know you were a theologian. You must be very busy studying. Rahner? Congar? Or Augustine, Aquinas, Bonaventure, or even simple works/studies from Ott or Denzinger? How about the Ottaviani intervention? At least Msgr. Gamber, right? Please enlighten us.

Edited March 27, 2006 by brendan1104

[Cam42]

[quote name='brendan1104' date='Mar 26 2006, 10:31 PM']Ok Dave. Would like to reference and further support /prove your claims? I didn't know you were a theologian. You must be very busy studying. Rahner? Congar? Or Augustine, Aquinas, Bonaventure, or even simple works/studies from Ott or Denzinger? How about the Ottaviani intervention? At least Msgr. Gamber, right? Please enlighten us.
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Do you really want to get into a theological shouting match.....cuz I'll back Dave, in a heartbeat.....wanna play again? Ya know, I've studied all of those men, and I have spoken to everything that you have put forth thus far on any thread.....I'll let Dave do most of the work, if he wants, but I am not intimidated by your bully tactics.....btw, how about a simple dissertation from you on Dogmatic theology as defined by Ott. I would be intereseted in know your thoughts......not some canned cut and paste. How about a 1000 word essay. That should suffice to start.

He's not wrong.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 26 2006, 09:48 PM']Do you really want to get into a theological shouting match.....cuz I'll back Dave, in a heartbeat.....wanna play again?

He's not wrong.
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all this argument makes me tired of Catholicism.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 10:49 PM']all this argument makes me tired of Catholicism.
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Considering that you are at the heart of a lot of it, Sam, I don't know why?????

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 26 2006, 09:51 PM']Considering that you are at the heart of a lot of it, Sam, I don't know why?????
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i don't mean on phatmass. i mean in general. the big picture.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 09:49 PM']all this argument makes me tired of Catholicism.
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Just the fact of if the SSPX is in question regarding their place in the Church should send up red flags all over the place. If they were not in schism (hence, the FSSP), than there would be no question of it. The support of the SSPX makes as much sense as supporting a southern baptist who hates the papacy.

[Cam42]

Hey brendan....wanna tackle the simplistic questions that I have put forth in post #41 and previous.....it should be simple for a theological giant such as yourself.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 10:52 PM']i don't mean on phatmass. i mean in general. the big picture.
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Riiiiigggghhhhhhttttt, whatever.....I know what you meant. I somehow think that you are more at the heart of every discussion that takes place around you, Sam.

You don't know what you are talking about. We have been over this before......you have a lot of learning to do.......I suggest, again (*sigh*) that you stop with this schismatic thought and simply learn your faith, as the Church teaches it.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 26 2006, 09:55 PM']Riiiiigggghhhhhhttttt, whatever.....I know what you meant.  I somehow think that you are more at the heart of every discussion that takes place around you, Sam.

You don't know what you are talking about.  We have been over this before......you have a lot of learning to do.......I suggest, again (*sigh*) that you stop with this schismatic thought and simply learn your faith, as the Church teaches it.
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sorry. i don't think i have the brain capacity to learn my faith "as the church teches it". i will just continue to be an idiot backwards, redneck, schismatic.


peace out hombres,

Sam

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 11:03 PM']sorry. i don't think i have the brain capacity to learn my faith "as the church teches it".  i will just continue to be an idiot backwards, redneck, schismatic.
peace out hombres,

Sam
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What a shame.....obstinant refusal......I will pray for you.

[Paphnutius]

Sam do you have aim?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 26 2006, 10:08 PM']Sam do you have aim?
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yes. but (and i do not mean this in an offensive or mean way) i don't give it out to people i do not know.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 09:09 PM']yes. but (and i do not mean this in an offensive or mean way) i don't give it out to people i do not know.
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All this time you have been with me, and you know me not?

j/k. That is understandable.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 26 2006, 10:10 PM']All this time you have been with me, and you know me not?

j/k. That is understandable.
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[brendan1104]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 26 2006, 10:48 PM']btw, how about a simple dissertation from you on Dogmatic theology as defined by Ott.  I would be intereseted in know your thoughts......not some canned cut and paste.  How about a 1000 word essay.  That should suffice to start.
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how long do i have to complete it? i haven't read ott in about a year and a half. give me until next week at least i'll need to review.

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 26 2006, 11:09 PM']yes. but (and i do not mean this in an offensive or mean way) i don't give it out to people i do not know.
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e-mail me with it. i need to speak to you.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='brendan1104' date='Mar 27 2006, 07:46 PM']how long do i have to complete it? i haven't read ott in about a year and a half. give me until next week at least i'll need to review.
e-mail me with it. i need to speak to you.
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I just emailed you.

[Dave]

[quote name='brendan1104' date='Mar 26 2006, 09:31 PM']Ok Dave. Would like to reference and further support /prove your claims? I didn't know you were a theologian. You must be very busy studying. Rahner? Congar? Or Augustine, Aquinas, Bonaventure, or even simple works/studies from Ott or Denzinger? How about the Ottaviani intervention? At least Msgr. Gamber, right? Please enlighten us.
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I'm gonna divide this up into about 3 posts, as for some reason, twice already my computer has screwed up as I've been typing ... so if it acts up again at least I won't be losing the entire post again.

First, the Ottaviani Intervention ... did you know that Cardinal Ottaviani expressed his misgivings about the Novus Ordo Mass BEFORE it was finalized and then later RETRACTED his intervention? Here's what he says:

[quote]"I have REJOICED PROFOUNDLY to read the Discourse by the Holy Father on the question of the new Ordo Missae, and ESPECIALLY THE DOCTRINAL PRECISIONS CONTAINED IN HIS DISCOURSES at the public Audiences of November 19 and 26, after which I believe, NO ONE CAN ANY LONGER BE GENUINELY SCANDALIZED. As for the rest, a prudent and intelligent catechesis must be undertaken to solve some legitimate perplexities which the text is capable of arousing. In this sense I wish your 'Doctrinal Note' [on the Pauline Rite Mass] and the activity of the Militia Sanctae Mariae WIDE DIFFUSION AND SUCCESS." (Whitehead, 129, Letter from his eminence Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani to Dom Gerard Lafond, O.S.B., in Documentation Catholique, #67, 1970, pages 215-216 and 343) [/quote]

Later he said:

[quote]The Beauty of the Church is equally resplendent in the variety of the liturgical rites which enrich her divine cult-when they are legitimate and conform to the faith. Precisely the LEGITIMACY OF THEIR ORIGIN PROTECTS AND GUARDS THEM AGAINST INFILTRATION OF ERRORS. . . .The PURITY AND UNITY OF THE FAITH is in this manner also UPHELD BY THE SUPREME MAGISTERIUM OF THE POPE THROUGH THE LITURGICAL LAWS." (In Cruzado Espanol, May 25, 1970)[/quote]

And then even later:

[quote]"The words of Christ 'feed my sheep' are words which have been addressed only to his vicar, and it follows that whoever would wish to be counted among the Flock of Christ must submit to the Universal Pastor appointed by Christ. No one can be a exception to this rule, not even Bishops." (Whitehead, 130, From Leroy Philippe, "Pierre a Parle," Chevaliers #32, 1976). [/quote]

So dude, you're not exactly obeying the Church as Cardinal Ottaviani did! You could learn A LOT from him.

[Dave]

And now hear what Vatican I and the Council of Trent have to say about those who refuse to accept any legitimate rite of Mass (and that includes the Novus Ordo):

[quote]"If anyone should say that the Roman Pontiff has merely the function of inspection or direction but not full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not only in matters pertaining to faith and morals, but also in matters pertaining to the discipline and government of the Church throughout the entire world, or that he has only the principal share, but not the full plenitude of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate over all Churches and over each individual Church, over all shepherds and all the faithful, and over each individual one of these: let him be anathema" (Vatican Council I, Dogmatic Constitution of the Church of Christ, #3).[/quote]

Now here's what the 7th canon of the Council of Trent regarding the Mass:

[quote]“If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments and outward signs which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of Masses are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema.” [/quote]

The Novus Ordo Mass is an approved liturgy of the Church, so according to Trent, so it CANNOT be intrinsically bad.

Thus, by refusing to accept the Novus Ordo Mass and to obey the Holy Father, as well as your making yourself an accessory to the sin of schism by praising Archbishop Lefebvre and his cronies, you have placed yourself outside the Church and are NOT in the proper state to receive the sacraments. I will pray for you big-time, as you're placing your soul in grave danger.