Justification

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What do we believe about Justification of a sinner before God. How is man made righteous?
What is our position and why do we think it is necessary?

Just so you know my background here, Im having a running dialogue with a professor at a calvinistic school.

[Brother Adam]

Then we are somewhat in the same boat here. I have a 5-point calvinist friend whom I discussing many of the same issues. I would suggest rereading what the Catechism says first, to get the Catholic view firmly rooted in your own mind first. I then suggest books like "Not by Faith Alone", "Evangelical Is Not Enough", and "Predestination", as well as some of the early Fathers, if he is willing to listen to that.

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I was actually hoping you would reply adam, based on your background. But I dont know if calvinism would have the same justification as we do. But I will need to do more research in it. I assumed based on their overall soteriology that there would not be the personal responsability we see in our own faith. But heck, I guess that is why we dialogue

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my bad...

I thought you were saying that calvinism and catholicism are in the same boat...not you and I..

oops..

ok, thats better. you scared me a lil bit.

who are the authors of those books?

right now we are discussing what a free will is

[Era Might]

Jimmy Akin has a good book called "The Salvation Controversy".

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Mar 22 2006, 03:01 PM']I was actually hoping you would reply adam, based on your background. But I dont know if calvinism would have the same justification as we do. But I will need to do more research in it. I assumed based on their overall soteriology that there would not be the personal responsability we see in our own faith. But heck, I guess that is why we dialogue
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It is almost double-speak. They do not deny free will, but at the same time, believe that we either are going to heaven, or are not going to heaven. We have no real choice because we are all ultimately predestined either to heaven, or to hell. Those who are predestined to heaven will accept Christ, and by doing so, the act of acceptance indicates faith, and God then works the faith in the soul, elevating it to new life. I'm learning more as well as to the specifics of what Calvin himself believed since it has been some time since I have read any of the Institutes.

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[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 22 2006, 03:04 PM']We have no real choice because we are all ultimately predestined either to heaven, or to hell. .
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???

are you saying the church believes in utter predestination?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Mar 22 2006, 03:14 PM']???

are you saying the church believes in utter predestination?
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As far as I know Calvinists have always believed in double-predestination.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Mar 22 2006, 02:14 PM']???

are you saying the church believes in utter predestination?
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He was speaking about Calvinism there.

The Church does believe in singular predestination (Heaven is everyone's destination, but not all will attain it), but not double predestination (some are pre-destined to Hell).

[Chester]

Your bet bet is to read the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent.

[OneForTruth]

What is the basis of one's election? Can someone answer?

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it is scary when threads are brought back.

Define what you understand is "election" please Onefortruth

Here is a quote from OSV
[quote]The elect are God’s people chosen by Him to live with Him in love for all eternity. Their purpose on earth includes their participation in God’s saving action of reconciling all things to Himself. The existence of the “elect” is grounded in a deliberate and sovereign act of God, Who, in the language of the Old Testament, “sets His heart” on a people, Israel (Dt 4:37ff.; 7:6ff.). The language of “election” in the Old Testament (Hebrew, bhr and cognates) and New Testament (Greek, eklegomai and cognates) are without true synonyms.

This linguistic peculiarity strongly suggests that this biblical language expresses a precise and technical meaning not found in other terminology. One aspect of this language is that it reveals a characteristic of God — He is the One Who elects, chooses and makes a people. Even prior to choosing Abraham (“I took your father Abraham,” Jos 24:3; cf. also Jos 24:15; Ex 34:9; 19:5), God made choices, manifesting preferences in accord with His plan to reconcile the cosmos back to Himself (e.g., Cain: Gn 4:4-5; Enoch: Gn 5:24; Noah: Gn 7:1; etc.). His call to the patriarchs and prophets participates in the forming of a people for His purposes (e.g., Isaac: Gn 18:19), namely, to be a blessing not for themselves alone but for the whole earth (Gn 12:3; 22:18; 26:4; 28:14). Just as the rejection of God and His choice brings special consequences for the elect (Jer 31:11; Hos 11:8; Ez 20:32), so also does God reassure His beloved of His desire to pursue and reclaim His people even after infidelity on the part of the elect (Zec 1:17; 2:16; 3:8; Is 14:1; 6:13).

In short, God continually pursues the elect (Is 41:8: 43:10, 20; 45:4; 65:9, 15, 22). Why? The elect are to be a holy people (Dt 14:2), a consecrated nation who above all nations gives honor and glory to God, Who is creator of all (Dt 26:19). In the New Testament, Jesus is God’s Chosen One (i.e., Messiah), God’s Elect (Mk 13:20-27; Mt 22:14; Ti 1:1; 1 Pt 1:2; 2:4-6, 9-10). The reference to Jesus as “my elect one” at Luke 9:35 and 23:35 echoes the “words of God” in the language of Psalm 89:4 and that of Isaiah 42:1. In Revelation 17:14, those connected with the Lamb are called the “chosen.” In this instance we have a clear shift in the application of language — the language of election once applied to Israel in the Old Testament is, now in the New Testament, applied to the Church (Acts 13:17; Is 45:4), who are God’s elect (Ti 1:1). The Church is the royal priesthood, the holy nation, God’s own people (1 Pt 2:9; Is 43:20; Ex 19:4-6). In Ephesians 1:4, we learn most clearly about God’s choice for a Church holy and blameless — a choice made before the cosmos was ever formed (cf. 1 Pt 1:2, 15, 16, alluding to Lv 11:44, 45).

In summary, the elect were chosen by God to live with Him in holiness and blamelessness before the creation of the cosmos. The elect’s identity begins in the person of Abraham and reaches its fullest manifestation in the Person of Christ and in the Church, the gathered “elect.”[/quote]

The issue is that the term "elect" has been confused by various eccesiological communities. Mostly influenced by Calvin and the idea of a predestined sample of soteriology from individual to individual and a hermenutical understanding the pauline texts that has not be used prior. The Letter to the Romans is a great example of this.

Let me hear where you are coming from, and I will try to answer what I can. Fully endorsing that I am a neophyte in the catholic arena.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1290642' date='Jun 7 2007, 10:26 PM']it is scary when threads are brought back.

Define what you understand is "election" please Onefortruth

Here is a quote from OSV
The issue is that the term "elect" has been confused by various eccesiological communities. Mostly influenced by Calvin and the idea of a predestined sample of soteriology from individual to individual and a hermenutical understanding the pauline texts that has not be used prior. The Letter to the Romans is a great example of this.

Let me hear where you are coming from, and I will try to answer what I can. Fully endorsing that I am a neophyte in the catholic arena.[/quote]

I understand this to be applying to individuals and being based only on God's gracious choice...that each individual was chosen before the foundation of the world not on the basis of works or on the basis of our own will - but on the will of God...

Romans 9:10-24 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, [b]neither having done any good or evil[/b], that the purpose of God according to election might stand, [b]not of works, but of him that calleth[/b] 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, [b]I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion[/b]. 16 [i]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy[/i][u][/u]. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 [b]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth[/b]. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make [b]one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour[/b]? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Isn't he speaking of individuals when he says that it is not the man who wills or the man who runs...and when he speaks of vessels of mercy, vessels of wrath?

We are also told to make certain of our calling and election as individuals...

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

Doesn't this calling and choosing refer back to Romans 9 and the language of "not of the man who wills or the man who runs but God that shows mercy"?

[RezaMikhaeil]

Check out James 2:18-26

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1290769' date='Jun 8 2007, 05:49 AM']Check out James 2:18-26[/quote]

I guess I do not see how James 2:18-26 directly ties into my posting above...however, justification (as presented in Romans) is tied to election in Romans 8...

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For [b]whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son[/b], that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover [b]whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified[/b]: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Justified in James 2 is different from "justified" in Romans (Chaps 4, 5, 6, 7 - etc.)

One other note: I am reviewing some posts above as well and I cannot say that I am understanding this concept of double predestination...The only predestination that I see in scripture I find in Romans 8:29-30 which I have pasted above.

He predestined a people to himself and effectually called them - then justified them - and they will be glorified...this predestination is not a predestination of all mankind but only of those whom he chose/foreknew.