Justification

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What do we believe about Justification of a sinner before God. How is man made righteous?
What is our position and why do we think it is necessary?

Just so you know my background here, Im having a running dialogue with a professor at a calvinistic school.

[Brother Adam]

Then we are somewhat in the same boat here. I have a 5-point calvinist friend whom I discussing many of the same issues. I would suggest rereading what the Catechism says first, to get the Catholic view firmly rooted in your own mind first. I then suggest books like "Not by Faith Alone", "Evangelical Is Not Enough", and "Predestination", as well as some of the early Fathers, if he is willing to listen to that.

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I was actually hoping you would reply adam, based on your background. But I dont know if calvinism would have the same justification as we do. But I will need to do more research in it. I assumed based on their overall soteriology that there would not be the personal responsability we see in our own faith. But heck, I guess that is why we dialogue

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my bad...

I thought you were saying that calvinism and catholicism are in the same boat...not you and I..

oops..

ok, thats better. you scared me a lil bit.

who are the authors of those books?

right now we are discussing what a free will is

[Era Might]

Jimmy Akin has a good book called "The Salvation Controversy".

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Mar 22 2006, 03:01 PM']I was actually hoping you would reply adam, based on your background. But I dont know if calvinism would have the same justification as we do. But I will need to do more research in it. I assumed based on their overall soteriology that there would not be the personal responsability we see in our own faith. But heck, I guess that is why we dialogue
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It is almost double-speak. They do not deny free will, but at the same time, believe that we either are going to heaven, or are not going to heaven. We have no real choice because we are all ultimately predestined either to heaven, or to hell. Those who are predestined to heaven will accept Christ, and by doing so, the act of acceptance indicates faith, and God then works the faith in the soul, elevating it to new life. I'm learning more as well as to the specifics of what Calvin himself believed since it has been some time since I have read any of the Institutes.

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[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 22 2006, 03:04 PM']We have no real choice because we are all ultimately predestined either to heaven, or to hell. .
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???

are you saying the church believes in utter predestination?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Mar 22 2006, 03:14 PM']???

are you saying the church believes in utter predestination?
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As far as I know Calvinists have always believed in double-predestination.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Mar 22 2006, 02:14 PM']???

are you saying the church believes in utter predestination?
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He was speaking about Calvinism there.

The Church does believe in singular predestination (Heaven is everyone's destination, but not all will attain it), but not double predestination (some are pre-destined to Hell).

[Chester]

Your bet bet is to read the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent.

[OneForTruth]

What is the basis of one's election? Can someone answer?

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it is scary when threads are brought back.

Define what you understand is "election" please Onefortruth

Here is a quote from OSV
[quote]The elect are God’s people chosen by Him to live with Him in love for all eternity. Their purpose on earth includes their participation in God’s saving action of reconciling all things to Himself. The existence of the “elect” is grounded in a deliberate and sovereign act of God, Who, in the language of the Old Testament, “sets His heart” on a people, Israel (Dt 4:37ff.; 7:6ff.). The language of “election” in the Old Testament (Hebrew, bhr and cognates) and New Testament (Greek, eklegomai and cognates) are without true synonyms.

This linguistic peculiarity strongly suggests that this biblical language expresses a precise and technical meaning not found in other terminology. One aspect of this language is that it reveals a characteristic of God — He is the One Who elects, chooses and makes a people. Even prior to choosing Abraham (“I took your father Abraham,” Jos 24:3; cf. also Jos 24:15; Ex 34:9; 19:5), God made choices, manifesting preferences in accord with His plan to reconcile the cosmos back to Himself (e.g., Cain: Gn 4:4-5; Enoch: Gn 5:24; Noah: Gn 7:1; etc.). His call to the patriarchs and prophets participates in the forming of a people for His purposes (e.g., Isaac: Gn 18:19), namely, to be a blessing not for themselves alone but for the whole earth (Gn 12:3; 22:18; 26:4; 28:14). Just as the rejection of God and His choice brings special consequences for the elect (Jer 31:11; Hos 11:8; Ez 20:32), so also does God reassure His beloved of His desire to pursue and reclaim His people even after infidelity on the part of the elect (Zec 1:17; 2:16; 3:8; Is 14:1; 6:13).

In short, God continually pursues the elect (Is 41:8: 43:10, 20; 45:4; 65:9, 15, 22). Why? The elect are to be a holy people (Dt 14:2), a consecrated nation who above all nations gives honor and glory to God, Who is creator of all (Dt 26:19). In the New Testament, Jesus is God’s Chosen One (i.e., Messiah), God’s Elect (Mk 13:20-27; Mt 22:14; Ti 1:1; 1 Pt 1:2; 2:4-6, 9-10). The reference to Jesus as “my elect one” at Luke 9:35 and 23:35 echoes the “words of God” in the language of Psalm 89:4 and that of Isaiah 42:1. In Revelation 17:14, those connected with the Lamb are called the “chosen.” In this instance we have a clear shift in the application of language — the language of election once applied to Israel in the Old Testament is, now in the New Testament, applied to the Church (Acts 13:17; Is 45:4), who are God’s elect (Ti 1:1). The Church is the royal priesthood, the holy nation, God’s own people (1 Pt 2:9; Is 43:20; Ex 19:4-6). In Ephesians 1:4, we learn most clearly about God’s choice for a Church holy and blameless — a choice made before the cosmos was ever formed (cf. 1 Pt 1:2, 15, 16, alluding to Lv 11:44, 45).

In summary, the elect were chosen by God to live with Him in holiness and blamelessness before the creation of the cosmos. The elect’s identity begins in the person of Abraham and reaches its fullest manifestation in the Person of Christ and in the Church, the gathered “elect.”[/quote]

The issue is that the term "elect" has been confused by various eccesiological communities. Mostly influenced by Calvin and the idea of a predestined sample of soteriology from individual to individual and a hermenutical understanding the pauline texts that has not be used prior. The Letter to the Romans is a great example of this.

Let me hear where you are coming from, and I will try to answer what I can. Fully endorsing that I am a neophyte in the catholic arena.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1290642' date='Jun 7 2007, 10:26 PM']it is scary when threads are brought back.

Define what you understand is "election" please Onefortruth

Here is a quote from OSV
The issue is that the term "elect" has been confused by various eccesiological communities. Mostly influenced by Calvin and the idea of a predestined sample of soteriology from individual to individual and a hermenutical understanding the pauline texts that has not be used prior. The Letter to the Romans is a great example of this.

Let me hear where you are coming from, and I will try to answer what I can. Fully endorsing that I am a neophyte in the catholic arena.[/quote]

I understand this to be applying to individuals and being based only on God's gracious choice...that each individual was chosen before the foundation of the world not on the basis of works or on the basis of our own will - but on the will of God...

Romans 9:10-24 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, [b]neither having done any good or evil[/b], that the purpose of God according to election might stand, [b]not of works, but of him that calleth[/b] 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, [b]I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion[/b]. 16 [i]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy[/i][u][/u]. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 [b]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth[/b]. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make [b]one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour[/b]? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Isn't he speaking of individuals when he says that it is not the man who wills or the man who runs...and when he speaks of vessels of mercy, vessels of wrath?

We are also told to make certain of our calling and election as individuals...

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

Doesn't this calling and choosing refer back to Romans 9 and the language of "not of the man who wills or the man who runs but God that shows mercy"?

[RezaMikhaeil]

Check out James 2:18-26

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1290769' date='Jun 8 2007, 05:49 AM']Check out James 2:18-26[/quote]

I guess I do not see how James 2:18-26 directly ties into my posting above...however, justification (as presented in Romans) is tied to election in Romans 8...

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For [b]whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son[/b], that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover [b]whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified[/b]: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Justified in James 2 is different from "justified" in Romans (Chaps 4, 5, 6, 7 - etc.)

One other note: I am reviewing some posts above as well and I cannot say that I am understanding this concept of double predestination...The only predestination that I see in scripture I find in Romans 8:29-30 which I have pasted above.

He predestined a people to himself and effectually called them - then justified them - and they will be glorified...this predestination is not a predestination of all mankind but only of those whom he chose/foreknew.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1290769' date='Jun 8 2007, 05:49 AM']Check out James 2:18-26[/quote]

By the way, James 2 is about living/dead faith...

It simply says...useless, dead, demonic faith cannot save anyone.

James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? [b]Can that faith save him[/b]?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

We are looking at faith that is counterfeit here...faith that works is saving faith - faith without works is nothing. Regardless of that, those who are elect will obey Christ and will persevere to the end. This is promised in scripture.

1Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are [b]chosen[/b] 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, [b]to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood[/b]: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Edited June 8, 2007 by OneForTruth

[kafka]

Here is an idea of predestination presented by a theologian:

Predestination and Free Will

Predestination is a simple and necessary result of the Eternal Nature of God. Heaven is with God, Who is Eternity. Those who enter Heaven dwell beyond Time and Place, with the One Eternal God. Therefore, everyone who ever will be saved and go to Heaven is there already. That is what is meant by predestination. The Elect are already in Heaven with God, and they always have been, since the beginning of the creation of Heaven (but not before Heaven was created). If you ever will get to Heaven, you are already there with God.

Some people say that there is an apparent contradiction between predestination and free will. If those who are predestined for Heaven must necessarily end up in Heaven, can they not use their free will to sin seriously and refuse to repent, and so end up in Hell? If free will can result in a person making choices, which cause them to end up in Hell, how is it that those who are predestined for Heaven have free will and yet cannot possibly end up in Hell? The solution to this apparent contradiction is simple.

Heaven is with the Eternal God, beyond Time and Place. Once someone enters Heaven, they have always been there, for Heaven is Timeless. Therefore, everyone who will ever enter this Heaven is already there, beyond Time. Everything is as if present tense to Heaven. Everyone who will ever die and leave Time to enter the first Heaven is already there, for Heaven is beyond Time.

Predestination is not a decision by God, made in advance, that certain ones will be saved and certain others will not be saved. Predestination is not the result of God foreseeing who will eventually be saved and enter Heaven. Predestination is not a gift given to some, and not to others, to necessarily end up in Heaven, no matter what they choose to do. Predestination is simply a necessary result of the existence of Heaven beyond Time. Because Heaven is not within Time, but is with the Eternal God, everyone who ever will go to the first Heaven is already there. [10]

Predestination is the fact that all those who ever will go to Heaven are already there, beyond Time. Those who are saved reach Heaven because, with their free will, they cooperated with God’s saving grace. They were predestined by God, in the sense that they have always been in Heaven, beyond Time. The Elect have always been in Heaven, since Heaven was created by God, until God takes away Heaven and earth, and makes a new Heaven and a new earth, (at the time of the general Resurrection; see Rev 21:1).

Predestination is the fact that God, as One Divine Eternal Act, is already with the Elect. Even though, from our point-of-view within Time, some of the Elect have not yet died and left Time to go to Heaven, all is complete for the One Divine Eternal Act. Predestination is the necessary result of the fact that the One Divine Eternal Act, by which we are all saved, is One and Eternal. Your salvation and your presence in Heaven with God could not possibly ever be future tense to God, because God is the One Divine Eternal Act.

When God created Time and Place, that is, when God created the Universe, Heaven already exists beyond Time and Place. And within Heaven exists the souls who have left Time and entered into Timelessness. When God created the Universe, the Elect watch from the timelessness of Heaven. When God created Adam and Eve, all those among their descendents who ever would leave Time to enter the first Heaven, yet who, within Time, had not yet even been conceived, watch from Heaven, beyond Time. When God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness….” (Gen 1:26), He says those words to the Elect in Heaven. When Moses saw the burning bush, all those who ever would be saved and enter the first Heaven watch with God, Who is Eternity. When Jesus suffered and died on the Cross, the Elect in Heaven watch His Salvific Act continually, without ceasing, in awe.

The Crucifixion is ever present tense to the Elect in Heaven. Jesus Christ continually pours out grace from the Cross, throughout all Time and all Place, and beyond Time and Place. The graces of Christ’s passion and death on the Cross pour forth to all Creation. Even those souls, who died before Christ’s Incarnation, are saved by the One Salvific Act of Christ on the Cross. Christ is God and God is Eternity; therefore, Christ on the Cross can pour forth Grace to all Creation, throughout all Time and Place, and beyond.

Taken from "Time and Eternity" Ronald Conte Jr.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='kafka' post='1290892' date='Jun 8 2007, 11:22 AM']Here is an idea of predestination presented by a theologian:

Predestination and Free Will

Predestination is a simple and necessary result of the Eternal Nature of God...[/quote]

I would like for you to make specific comments in direct response to the scriptures I am presenting...what are they saying...

Other scriptures that allude to the choosing of individuals include...

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; [b]and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed[/b].
John 15:16 "[b]You did not choose Me but I chose you,[/b] and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
John 6:37 "[b]All that the Father gives Me will come to Me[/b], and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
John 6:44 "[b]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him[/b]; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that [b]no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father[/b]."
John 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, [b]that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life[/b].
Acts 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and [b]the Lord opened her heart to respond [/b]to the things spoken by Paul.

Vessels of wrath/goats?? - John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. Then he says: John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

These show individuals being chosen - those appointed or ordained to eternal life believed as mentioned in Acts 13:48.

Edited June 8, 2007 by OneForTruth

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Onefortruth...I have some graduations this weekend to attend. But I have put it on my google desktop to address. You have asked some very good questions here.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1291219' date='Jun 8 2007, 11:18 PM']Onefortruth...I have some graduations this weekend to attend. But I have put it on my google desktop to address. You have asked some very good questions here.[/quote]

I look forward to hearing from you.