Justification

[reyb]

[indent]OneforTruth,[/indent]

[indent]Let us clear this up; the subject presented by Revprodeji is about ‘Justification’. To wit, 1. Justification of a sinner before God. 2. How is man made righteous. 3. Why it is necessary (justification or whatever comes into the discussion in relation to justification), according to the doctrine and teaching of Roman Catholic Church. In the course of their (Revprodeji, Era Might, Brother Adam, Paphnutius, OneforTruth, RezaLemmyng, and Kafka,) discussion, predestination and election crop-up.[/indent]
[indent]I please you to present here the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church about the above subject/s, if you are a catholic. If not, listen to them first and then discuss with them if something is wrong with such doctrine. [/indent]
[indent]I am very much willing to discuss with you the verses herein presented but, for the sake of good ‘exchange of views’ let us start from one before we go to two. Nevertheless, you are free. [/indent]

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='reyb' post='1292437' date='Jun 10 2007, 09:31 PM'][indent]OneforTruth,[/indent]

[indent]Let us clear this up; the subject presented by Revprodeji is about ‘Justification’. To wit, 1. Justification of a sinner before God. 2. How is man made righteous. 3. Why it is necessary (justification or whatever comes into the discussion in relation to justification), according to the doctrine and teaching of Roman Catholic Church. In the course of their (Revprodeji, Era Might, Brother Adam, Paphnutius, OneforTruth, RezaLemmyng, and Kafka,) discussion, predestination and election crop-up.[/indent]
[indent]I please you to present here the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church about the above subject/s, if you are a catholic. If not, listen to them first and then discuss with them if something is wrong with such doctrine. [/indent]
[indent]I am very much willing to discuss with you the verses herein presented but, for the sake of good ‘exchange of views’ let us start from one before we go to two. Nevertheless, you are free. [/indent][/quote]

Sorry about the fact that this thread took a turn...I am new to the forum and just tried to address the discussion that was taking place. I would certainly be happy to discuss sola fide/Justification on the basis of faith alone. After we have finished what we are in the middle of, we can prayerfully discuss this topic that the thread intended to discuss. Just so you know, I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist - Calvanistically inclined.

May the Lord Guide Us into all Truth

[reyb]

[indent]OneForTruth,
May I know what is your church's teaching about Justification and Predestination. Can you give me some reading materials - as reference.
Anyway, Revprodeji mentioned about his discussion with Calvinist professor.[/indent]

[Guest FourArrows]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1290881' date='Jun 8 2007, 01:08 PM']Justified in James 2 is different from "justified" in Romans (Chaps 4, 5, 6, 7 - etc.)[/quote]

Actually, they are the same word: dikaioō(#1344 in Strong's lexicon)
which means:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Just thought I'd put that out there



About Calvinist views of Predestination and Romans 8:
Unfortunantly, people have latched onto the word "predestination without stopping to study the Scriptures surrounding it.
A Calvinist worth his salt does not believe in a double predestination. The Bible never says taht anyone is "predestined" to hell.
The word is used only with those who belong to Christ:

Romans 8:29-30 says

[center]29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified;
and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [/center]

So, according to this passage:
Those whom God foreknew are predestined to become Christlike.
Those who are predestined to be Christlike are called.
Those who are called are justified.
Those who are justified are glorified.

This says nothing of a double predestination and the concept isn't found anywhere in Scripture.

As for "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated" ... the writers (both the Prophet Malachi and the Apostle Paul) are referring to the Edomites when they say "Esau." The Edomites were decendants of Esau while the Israelites came from the lie of Jacob. The "love and hate" statement is about God's choice of one and disregard of the other. However, if God "hated" Esau in the way so many seem quick to suppose, why is the Bible so clear that the Edomites were greatly blessed by God? (Genesis 33:9; Genesis chapter 36)

[Katholikos]

[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1292825' date='Jun 11 2007, 12:04 PM']Just so you know, I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist - Calvanistically inclined.[/quote]

Just so we'll get to know you, is this Wiki article on IFB's accurate?

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Baptist"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Baptist[/url]

Anything you take exception to? The pastor of each IFB church is the final authority on that particular church's doctrine, except that each and every member individually is free to either agree or disagree, right? So in relality, the final authority is you? Just trying to understand. I used to be a Southern Baptist (and later an agnostic and then an atheist).

Welcome. Glad to meet you.

Likos

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='FourArrows' post='1293886' date='Jun 12 2007, 03:47 PM'][. . .]

This says nothing of a double predestination and the concept isn't found anywhere in Scripture.[/quote]
I agree that "double predestination" is not found in scripture, but Calvin said that, "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, [i]but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation[/i]; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death." [John Calvin, [u]Institutes of the Christian Religion[/u], Book 3, Chapter 21, no. 5]

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='FourArrows' post='1293886' date='Jun 12 2007, 04:47 PM']Actually, they are the same word: dikaioō(#1344 in Strong's lexicon)
which means:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be[/quote]

Which of the definitions is being used in James 2 and which of the definitions for say...Romans 8:33? 1, 2, or 3?

I will argue that they are not used the same.

[Guest FourArrows]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1294429' date='Jun 13 2007, 11:13 AM']I agree that "double predestination" is not found in scripture, but Calvin said that, "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, [i]but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation[/i]; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death." [John Calvin, [u]Institutes of the Christian Religion[/u], Book 3, Chapter 21, no. 5][/quote]

Thank you very much for the quote. I disagree with Calvin's statement. (not something you hear me say very often lol)
Calvin's iInstitutes have actually been high on my wishlist for many years. I do consider myself a Calvinist, but need to get my hands on his works to see exactly what he said/believed beyond the basic TULIP that I've been taught.


[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1294473' date='Jun 13 2007, 01:10 PM']Which of the definitions is being used in James 2 and which of the definitions for say...Romans 8:33? 1, 2, or 3?

I will argue that they are not used the same.[/quote]

I will study closer. Thank you for the challenge

Just by way of some explanation: in the earlier post you said the two were not the same. I was only posting that the word used is the same word.
Of course, I am more than willing to agree that a single word may mean different things.
I think that 1 & 3 are at least very similar if not identical. If you see a difference, could you please show me?
#2 is different, of course.
As I said, I'll look at the posted Scriptures more carefully before posting again. Thanks again for this call out.

To all here ... I am no theologian by any means, and don't I know it!
I am sure I won't be able to discuss and debate with you on your levels much of the time. But I also believe that the members of the body of Christ are meant to teach, share, & learn to, with, and from each other.
So, I am here to share and learn. It's "your" forum (I am protestant) so I am determined to respect you.
I hope you can, in turn, respect that I am not here to fuel fires or come off haughty. If it ever turns that way i hope you call me on it!
But I do look forward to learning more about how Catholics believe and having discussions on points agreed upon as well as those we might disagree on.

Edited June 14, 2007 by FourArrows