ironmonk Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 From what I've read so far, it looks like it is targeting employers who knowingly employ illegals. I'll try to read more of it tonight. I really hate how the media lies.
Jaime Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 Except the bill that passed the house is HR 4437 You're quoting a similar senate bill. But not the correct one. Perhaps your fascist xenophobic resources sent you to the wrong bill Here is the section in question on HR4437 [quote] SEC. 274. (a) Criminal Offenses and Penalties- `(1) PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES- Whoever-- `(A) assists, encourages, directs, or induces a person to come to or enter the United States, or to attempt to come to or enter the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to come to or enter the United States; `(B) assists, encourages, directs, or induces a person to come to or enter the United States at a place other than a designated port of entry or place other than as designated by the Secretary of Homeland Security, regardless of whether such person has official permission or lawful authority to be in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien; `© assists, encourages, directs, or induces a person to reside in or remain in the United States, or to attempt to reside in or remain in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to reside in or remain in the United States; `(D) transports or moves a person in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to enter or be in the United States, where the transportation or movement will aid or further in any manner the person's illegal entry into or illegal presence in the United States; `(E) harbors, conceals, or shields from detection a person in the United States knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to be in the United States; `(F) transports, moves, harbors, conceals, or shields from detection a person outside of the United States knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien in unlawful transit from one country to another or on the high seas, under circumstances in which the person is in fact seeking to enter the United States without official permission or lawful authority; or `(G) conspires or attempts to commit any of the preceding acts, shall be punished as provided in paragraph (2), regardless of any official action which may later be taken with respect to such alien.[/quote] This expands the definition of "smuggling immigrants" and allows for charitable groups to be charged with felony by giving aid.
Sojourner Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 09:41 AM']From what I've read so far, it looks like it is targeting employers who knowingly employ illegals. I'll try to read more of it tonight. I really hate how the media lies. [right][snapback]923513[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/22/opinion/22mahony.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin"]Apparently Cardinal Mahony lies too[/url] [quote]I'VE received a lot of criticism for stating last month that I would instruct the priests of my archdiocese to disobey a proposed law that would subject them, as well as other church and humanitarian workers, to criminal penalties. The proposed Border Protection, Antiterrorism and Illegal Immigration Control bill, which was approved by the House of Representatives in December and is expected to be taken up by the Senate next week, would among other things subject to five years in prison anyone who "assists" an undocumented immigrant "to remain in the United States."[/quote]
ironmonk Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 27 2006, 09:46 AM']Except the bill that passed the house is HR 4437 You're quoting a similar senate bill. But not the correct one. Perhaps your fascist xenophobic resources sent you to the wrong bill Here is the section in question on HR4437 This expands the definition of "smuggling immigrants" and allows for charitable groups to be charged with felony by giving aid. [right][snapback]923516[/snapback][/right] [/quote] There are four versions of it. Here is the latest: [url="http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:4:./temp/~c109i74x7H::"]http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109...p/~c109i74x7H::[/url] nm... found it, reading now. Sojo... There is a difference between lying and being wrong.
Sojourner Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 09:59 AM']Sojo... There is a difference between lying and being wrong. [right][snapback]923521[/snapback][/right] [/quote] So you don't think the good cardinal would have checked his facts before writing an op-ed in the Times? And I wonder why no one besides you would have rebutted him in the three weeks since this piece? Apparently you and you alone have a corner on the truth of the situation ... good thing we've got you to keep an eye on things for us.
Jaime Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 26 2006, 07:15 PM'] The key term here is "illegal"... and they should be removed. As our faith teaches us that laws should be followed. [right][snapback]922987[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 07:32 AM']There is nothing unjust about making it a felony to give aid to illegal aliens. The border needs to be locked down tight, and people should get some type of punishment for knowingly aiding illegal aliens. [right][snapback]923487[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 08:05 AM']I'm not talking about the Church. [right][snapback]923497[/snapback][/right] [/quote] So now that we've clarified the actual bill being discussed and protested, do you still hold the stance that Cardinal Mahoney is wrong?
ironmonk Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 After reading what I have thus far, I do not think that it would subject humanitarian workers to penalties. Humanitarian workers and Priests shouldn't be trafficing illegals, if they are giving humanitarian aid, such as food, the Mass, medical care... no one giving humanitarian aid should be providing a job or encouraging illegal aliens to stay in the US. The US Gov. has a right to keep illegal aliens out. I support keeping illegal aliens out. I support toughening the laws. I support enforcing the laws. Keeping illegal aliens out of the US is not unjust. Punishing people for breaking the law is not unjust. This does not go against Catholic teaching. If this becomes law, it will be sinning to break the law... all wrong doing is sin... the Church teaches that breaking the law is a sin. People who are helping illegals now, are breaking the law... therefore sinning. I also support allowing more immigrants into the USA legally provided that the illegal aliens get shut out. What would happen if people would not help illegals... they would stop coming and go home. This isn't just about the US, this is about protecting mexicans who come here illegally. Too many farmers take advantage of illegals, many people abuse illegals, they are raped, beaten, etc... and they have no one to go to because they fear that they'll be deported if they report the crimes to the police. Illegals are used like cattle... they are dehumanized. Do the politicians care... no because the illegals can't vote... Who has actually shown compassion to them... the Bush boys. Why not try to fix mexico's problems instead of running from them? (now, I don't know all their problems nor do I have time to research them... is not the president of mexico Catholic? It would seem that the Bishops could get a lot done to help them.) I do think that specifically stating that religious organizations and humanitarian non-profit orgs. should be exempt to a certain degree. I do believe that priests and humanitarian workers should help illegals find their way home back to mexico or wherever they came from.
Jaime Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) [quote]After reading what I have thus far, I do not think that it would subject humanitarian workers to penalties.[/quote] Well then you are reading it wrong [quote]HR 4437 criminalizes organizations and individuals assisting undocumented immigrants HR 4437 greatly expands the definition of “alien smuggling” to include assisting a person to remain or attempt to remain in the United States when the “offender” knows the person is in the United States unlawfully – thereby treating social services organizations, refugee agencies, churches, legal services and others the same as smuggling organizations and imposing criminal penalties for providing such assistance. Even family members and charitable workers could face federal prison time for assisting undocumented immigrants. [/quote] There are no qualifications for allowing aid to illegals. None Edited March 27, 2006 by jaime
Sojourner Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:43 AM']After reading what I have thus far, I do not think that it would subject humanitarian workers to penalties. [right][snapback]923565[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Apparently you're in the minority on this one. [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:43 AM']The US Gov. has a right to keep illegal aliens out. I support keeping illegal aliens out. I support toughening the laws. I support enforcing the laws. Keeping illegal aliens out of the US is not unjust. Punishing people for breaking the law is not unjust. This does not go against Catholic teaching. If this becomes law, it will be sinning to break the law... all wrong doing is sin... the Church teaches that breaking the law is a sin. People who are helping illegals now, are breaking the law... therefore sinning. [right][snapback]923565[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The U.S. government of course has a right to draft and enforce immigration laws. However, enforcement alone is not going to make illegal immigration go away. No enforcement scenario is 100 percent effective. People who are helping undocumented immigrants now are not breaking the law as it currently stands. They're providing aid to people in need, without regard to immigration status. AND sometimes there are entirely valid reasons for someone to be in the country without the proper papers -- it takes time to process things, and in the meantime an immigrant may not be properly documented. That happens all the time. The vast majority of undocumented immigrants WANT to be documented -- at least the ones I've talked to. They're just in varying stages of getting to that point. [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:43 AM']I also support allowing more immigrants into the USA legally provided that the illegal aliens get shut out. [right][snapback]923565[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You do realize, don't you, that undocumented immigrants aren't just the day laborers you see at gas stations? A significant number of undocumented immigrants come here seeking asylum, or to leave a bad situation at home? U.S. immigration law allows, among other reasons, for people to immigrate who have been victims of violent crime, or who are victims of domestic violence married to a U.S. citizen, or who are victims of persecution or torture, or who have been targeted by gangs and have refused to join. Last year in Indianapolis alone, we had people from 69 different countries seeking residency on those types of grounds -- many of them were illegal. Should they be painted with the same brush day laborers are? [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:43 AM']What would happen if people would not help illegals... they would stop coming and go home. [right][snapback]923565[/snapback][/right] [/quote] So are really advocating, then, that even humanitarian aid shouldn't be provided to undocumented immigrants? And, you do realize, don't you, that there are upwards of 11 million undocumented immigrants in the U.S.? Who's going to pay to get them home? Do we just kick them out of wherever they're living with their knapsacks on their backs and a walking stick? Wouldn't that be a hardship on their landlords and/or mortgage companies (because you can buy a house even without a Social Security number)? What about the ones who have been living here for 20 years? Who have children who've been born and raised here? [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:43 AM']This isn't just about the US, this is about protecting mexicans who come here illegally. Too many farmers take advantage of illegals, many people abuse illegals, they are raped, beaten, etc... and they have no one to go to because they fear that they'll be deported if they report the crimes to the police. Illegals are used like cattle... they are dehumanized. Do the politicians care... no because the illegals can't vote... Who has actually shown compassion to them... the Bush boys. [right][snapback]923565[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree that people take advantage of undocumented immigrants -- heck, people take advantage of LEGAL immigrants (I have a friend who's from Singapore who worked in a PhD "sweatshop" at a local university for several years ... no one there reports the mistreatment because they're afraid fo losing their visas). But rather than further punishing immigrants for the ridiculous treatment they get at the hands of American citizens, I'd advocate a) revamping the system to allow for a more economically realistic immigration policy and b) finding ways to impose sanctions on Americans who callously take advantage of immigrants. [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:43 AM']Why not try to fix mexico's problems instead of running from them? (now, I don't know all their problems nor do I have time to research them... is not the president of mexico Catholic? It would seem that the Bishops could get a lot done to help them.) [right][snapback]923565[/snapback][/right] [/quote] In case you hadn't noticed, we're a little busy trying to "help" Iraq's problem's right now. [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:43 AM']I do think that specifically stating that religious organizations and humanitarian non-profit orgs. should be exempt to a certain degree. I do believe that priests and humanitarian workers should help illegals find their way home back to mexico or wherever they came from. [right][snapback]923565[/snapback][/right] [/quote] So .... you're saying priests and humanitarian workers should be doing the feds' enforcement for them?
cmotherofpirl Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 No government can stop me from giving a glass of water to anybody. Luke 10:29
ironmonk Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 sojo, You lack logic. I'm not going to bother with illogical comments you make.
ironmonk Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 This is actually pathetic... WHERE WAS THIS OUTRAGE WHEN ABORTION WAS LEGALIZED???!!!
ironmonk Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 [b]2241[/b] The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him. Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, [b]may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption[/b]. [u][i][b]Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens[/b][/i][/u].
ironmonk Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 I have little respect for anyone who sees this as a greater need than ending abortion. Why haven't people taken to the streets like this in regards to abortion?! According the Catechism, the gov has the right to make laws with regard to immigration. Now, the penalty for breaking those laws is up for debate... the Church is not infallible in regards to discipline, and it being a felony falls on those grounds. So far, I haven't seen anything logical or faithwise to reject making it a felony. These humanitarian groups can provide food, shelter, and water for these illegals while they wait for the immigration department to show up and send them back.
AngelofJesus Posted March 27, 2006 Author Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 08:12 AM']This is actually pathetic... WHERE WAS THIS OUTRAGE WHEN ABORTION WAS LEGALIZED???!!! [right][snapback]923647[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Talking about helping other people in need is pathetic? Regardless of their status. Isn't it Jesus that said " Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers you have done unto me". Yes, Abortion is one of the greatest crime legalized by this country, but abortion has it's own thread. (Which also brings to a point how erroneous some laws can get).
ardillacid Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 I would weigh in, but last time I talked about immigration I was labeled 'racist' for my views
Sojourner Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 12:11 PM']sojo, You lack logic. I'm not going to bother with illogical comments you make. [right][snapback]923644[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 12:12 PM']This is actually pathetic... WHERE WAS THIS OUTRAGE WHEN ABORTION WAS LEGALIZED???!!! [right][snapback]923647[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 12:27 PM']I have little respect for anyone who sees this as a greater need than ending abortion. Why haven't people taken to the streets like this in regards to abortion?! According the Catechism, the gov has the right to make laws with regard to immigration. Now, the penalty for breaking those laws is up for debate... the Church is not infallible in regards to discipline, and it being a felony falls on those grounds. So far, I haven't seen anything logical or faithwise to reject making it a felony. These humanitarian groups can provide food, shelter, and water for these illegals while they wait for the immigration department to show up and send them back. [right][snapback]923668[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What is this, "Well, I can't win with the immigration arguments I've put forth, so I'm going to say opposing viewpoints are illogical, and then change the subject to how abortion is worse."? Nice.
Jaime Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 11:12 AM']This is actually pathetic... WHERE WAS THIS OUTRAGE WHEN ABORTION WAS LEGALIZED???!!! [right][snapback]923647[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Talk about a red herring fallacy This is irrelevant to the issue at hand. The issue at hand is whether or not it should be a felony (or illegal at all) to give aid or comfort to an undocumented alien. Why you feel the need to stray off the subject so drastically is beyond me.
ironmonk Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 [quote name='AngelofJesus' date='Mar 27 2006, 12:36 PM']Talking about helping other people in need is pathetic? Regardless of their status. Isn't it Jesus that said " Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers you have done unto me". Yes, Abortion is one of the greatest crime legalized by this country, but abortion has it's own thread. (Which also brings to a point how erroneous some laws can get). [right][snapback]923689[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What is pathetic about it is that there is not the defence of innocent life as there should be. If the Bishop said take the street over this, then why didn't he say the same thing about abortion? If he did say take the street over this and not on abortion, then I have to question his judgment and the answer is poor. This is about helping other people break the law... This is not about helping other people live. There are so many illegal aliens that do not need to come to America for safety. There are so many illegal aliens that would be just fine in Mexico. So if they put themselves in danger, then it's their own fault. I say feed, and shelter them while they wait for the bus to be shipped back. - This is TOTALLY in line with Catholic teaching. If you think otherwise, then you do not know it very well.
ironmonk Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 27 2006, 01:44 PM']Talk about a red herring fallacy This is irrelevant to the issue at hand. The issue at hand is whether or not it should be a felony (or illegal at all) to give aid or comfort to an undocumented alien. Why you feel the need to stray off the subject so drastically is beyond me. [right][snapback]923778[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It's not a red herring... it goes to show that some people's priorities are messed up. It shows that they feel this is more important than innocent lives. Logic and reasoning shows the relevance. EDIT: I can't see taking the uproar so seriously when innocent lives of the unborn are less important than this. It also makes me stop and really question if I should object to the law. Like I wrote... I've seen nothing faithwise that says to reject it. So far, I support it. I'll try to read the whole thing tonight. Edited March 27, 2006 by ironmonk
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