Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 27 2006, 08:27 PM']My friend... Farmers don't have to pay minimum wage. The fields are full of illegal aliens working for $0.02 per ton of tomatos... they are lucky to make $100 working six days from dawn til dusk. Many are held at gunpoint... because farmers pay for them to be shipped here. Also, they can't take breaks... well, they can take a break, but then they'll loose their row of veggies to pick to someone else who needs to work... they get paid by the ton... not the pound, not the hour... the ton. Women and children in the fields, entire familys picking tomatos all day long... no school... no breaks... They live in condemned trailers that farmers can pick up for a few hundred dollars... God Bless and thanks for your input. For the others... I just went through the bill again... harbors, conceals, or shields = harbors or conceals or shields and the whopping key term: "From detection".... Soup kitchens can feed whoever comes through the door and it is not harboring, concealing, or shielding them from detection. Giving someone a sandwich or a bottle of water is not illegal according to the bill. illegal aliens are treated like dirt by people because illegals think that they cannot go to the police. Murder, Rape, etc... all done by legals to illegals. Many children get rapped. But now, let's not forget about the poor Asians that get shipped over here in cargo ships. Slave trade is big... Where do you think all these Asian and Mexican young beautiful prostitutes come from that are all over the big cities and flooded Nevada???? Slaves from other countries. How do they get here, illegally. Want to protect them, then go after employers of them... This bill also has a lot of verbiage about inhuman transfers. It seems to target the employers more than anyone else. Imagine for a minute if you lived In Mexico and China. You have a beatiful young daughter that dreams of coming to America. Someone approaches her and looks legit... shows up at your house and gives you all of these brochures telling you that they can get your daughter to America for school and a great career for $3000 to smuggle her across the border.... You scrape the money together through loans and family... you send your daughter... Oh but wait... she's not going to school. She's going to America or somewhere like Holland, to be a sex slave that they will get hooked on crack, and make her "earn" her freedom, but she'll also have to buy the drugs from them that they got her hooked on, she'll work in a brothel until she doesn't sell anymore and then either killed or thrown on the streets. God Bless, ironmonk [right][snapback]924313[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Uh huh I've read the bill. And it still says that charitable organizations can be charged with a felony for aiding an illegal immigrant. address my objection to the bill.
ironmonk Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 If you would like to learn more about the tomatoe pickers plight go to this site... [url="http://www.ciw-online.org/"]http://www.ciw-online.org/[/url] [url="http://www.ciw-online.org/slavery.html"]http://www.ciw-online.org/slavery.html[/url]
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 Unless of course you are suggesting that Cardinal Mahoney is pro sex slave trade...
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 I'll take it from your silence that this is your intent To infer something so insidious about the good cardinal. Shameful
ironmonk Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 I was just thinking and looking at some of the protest pictures.... It's obvious that they don't want to be here, they're waiving mexican flags, so let's give them what they want and send them home. These are criminals protesting the laws. As for Cardinal Mahoney, I do not trust his judgement or his Catholicity. Cardinal Mahoney is Corrected by the Holy See [url="http://www.unavoce.org/cdlmahht.htm"]http://www.unavoce.org/cdlmahht.htm[/url] Cardinal Mahony’s Cathedral Guards Remove and Threaten Pro-life Youth During Honours for Pro-abort Mayor [url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05070502.html"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05070502.html[/url] "Cardinal Mahoney received a warmly appreciative note from the anti-Catholic homosexual activist group, the Rainbow Sash Movement, who praised him for his support for their cause." The above is unacceptable.... and shows the dragon's tail. The bill does not make it illegal to provide food, medicine, clothing, and other vital necessities. Mahony is wrong. As he is wrong with allowing abortionists speak at a Cathedral, as he is for supporting the rainbow sash movement, and as he was about the Latin Mass.
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 (edited) Clearly the legal language of the bill is too complex for your comprehension Ironmonk. Mahoney is not wrong about his understanding. Any aid given to an illegal alien can be seen as abetting and supporting illegal activities. Feeding those in need is not wrong and is required by the Church through the Catechesism, Encyclicals and the Magisterium. Please educate yourself about the Catholic faith. I can post more so that you can learn about it, Edited March 28, 2006 by jaime
jiyoung Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 Cardinal Mahony might be wrong about abortion, and a number of other things, but he's not here. The man's got his faults, but he's dead on about this issue. I really think that instead of a bill like this, the system itself needs to be improved. You can't treat them all like criminals--perhaps some of them, or maybe even a lot of them are drug dealers, but that's making one huge sweeping assumption about them. They're not all necessarily here for bad reasons. Like people before me have said, some are here seeking asylum, and a lot of them are trying to create a better living condition for their families, to get them out of the ghettos. Not to "live like kings," though I'm sure there are some who do that, but to feed and clothe their children, and be able to send them to school instead of having them work with them in the tomato fields, or whatever. To provide a future for their children, and a better present for them as well. I think illegals going back and "living like kings" is the exception and not the rule. It's more important to better the legal ways that people can enter the US, so they can be better monitored (since I know illegal immigration is also a concern for terrorism), and since they're here legally they don't have to be subjected to these inhumane working conditions, and--I don't know if people with temporary visas pay taxes, but if they do, then instead of costing the government more money, the government can charge them taxes (maybe a little less than residents or something?). I don't think punishing those who help the people who are already here will help solve the problem at all.
jasJis Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 The mission is not just a food service. The other local Catholic church supplies all the food to the local food bank that supplies all the food to another two dozen organizations that give out food. I guess you people don't really know what it is to be an illegal migrant worker. Most of these people don't want a free meal, they want the opportunity to earn their meals. It's counter productive to encourge and foster a system where people are exploited with no legal recourse or hope, but it's better than living in Mexico or Guatemala. I personally don't give a rat bowel movement if that's properly "Catholic" or not because encouraging more illegal workers is incredibly short sighted and naive and is exploiting their suffering for political gain. I'm sure Mahooney is getting some political leverage out of this. Maybe more $$ in donations from Mexican illegals to add on to the Cathedral. Maybe a little leniency from a Hispanic investigator checking on some molestor priest. Maybe he just thinks it's good publicity for Catholics for a change. It's akin to passing legislature to make slave ships seaworthy.
Socrates Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 27 2006, 07:35 PM']Unless of course you are suggesting that Cardinal Mahoney is pro sex slave trade... [right][snapback]924328[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Unfortunately, Given Mahoney's track record on other moral issues, that wouldn't surprise me a bit . . .
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='Socrates' date='Mar 27 2006, 10:22 PM']Unfortunately, Given Mahoney's track record on other moral issues, that wouldn't surprise me a bit . . . [right][snapback]924520[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Suggesting that Cardinal Mahoney supports sex trafficking is deplorable. Also neither you, Ironmonk, nor Jas has offered anything that suggests that this bill is in line with Catholic teaching. Or is conservative republicanism more important to you than Catholicism? Given your track record on other issues, that wouldn't surprise me a bit
AngelofJesus Posted March 28, 2006 Author Posted March 28, 2006 To Ironmonk, Jasjis and Socrates, 1. Yes, the bill makes it harder for illegals to stay here. People in other countries will have to think long and hard before they come here. 2. It levies stiff penalties against individuals and organizations that help these illegals. Business and organization will have to turn down droves of illegals which will force these illegals to go home. The country is safer. There will also be less in the streets. 3. Rasing the per hour wage will make tomato picking a lot more tolerable. People (legal immigrants) will just go work in the fields and make more money than if they were flipping burgers. It will also force farmers to pay decent wages and have humane working conditions. However, 1. The bill does not prevent illegal immigrants from crossing the border. Tighter restrictions does not equal lesser illegals. They will just find other ways to make money in the US. All they want is a job in the US, because Mexico or other countries can't give them one. I am married to a former illegal immigrant. I have been to her town. Most people there only have a tortilla and salt for their meals. Tell me, why wouldn't they dream of coming here to the US, legal or not. They can rummage the garbage bin of a Mcdonald's here and eat better than 80% of the people in Mexico. 2. What the catholic charities are doing is just helping a fellow human being regardless of status. In-line with the teachings of our Lord Himself. We can argue about what the catholic stance is but we cannot argue with what Jesus have said. These charities understand it is not their job to stop illegal immigration. They just want to serve the Lord. 3. Paying $10/hr to pick tomatoes will not usher legal immigrants to work in the fields. For legal or americans to take back breaking jobs like that, will require a unionized labor force with each individual making close to $30/hour with paid benefits. Ask yourself sincerely, would you pick tomatoes for $10/hour? In addition, market prices will reflect what farmers pay for labor. Somewhere in the area of $5 per 1 tomato. At least we are safer.
jasJis Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 It doesn't matter if opposing the bill is technically Catholic or not. IM presented a legitmate Catholic perspective that did not agree with you. The Catholic Church also fostered homosexuality in priests, protected molesters, and let priests leave the country to avoid prosecution. Not exactly a stellar record in practicing morality in the real world, even though it was morally nice to claim to have forgiven the priest and helped him seek treatment... 1. Then get your wife to introduce to to a few illegals and get to know them. The only way to break the cycle of being trapped in slave conditions is to force them to come to the US as legals. We have the jobs for them. The system needs to change where they are recognized and protected by the Government and that means they have to recognize and obey the Gov. 2. Catholic charities should probably follow ALL the Catholic rusles which include respecting the legitimate immigration laws of the US. It is easier to immigrate here than any other major country. 3. Flat out, you have no clue. I've done harder work for less than $10 an hour within the last few years. Some of my current employees work harder for less. You are incredibly naive and arrogant and seperated from reality to claim that it will take a unionized work force and $30 an hour. That's incredibly stupid and I'm shocked to think that came from someone old enough to be married. $10 an hour goes alot further when you are here legally and don't have to live in a camp, be driven to work by the farmer, are not afraid to report crimes, are not afraid to go to a hospital, are not afraid to seek social services. Providing decent worker pay and benefits is a cost of processing food. If it makes tomatoes $10 each, then that's what a tomato costs. The US must eliminate the pool of illegal or 'second-class' labor. If a Mexican can pick squash, so can an American citizen. There should be no difference in the way they are treated.
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 [quote]2. Catholic charities should probably follow ALL the Catholic rusles which include respecting the legitimate immigration laws of the US. It is easier to immigrate here than any other major country.[/quote] Feel free to show where the Church states that aid should only be given to legal residents. That should be pretty easy for you. You've got the militant flag
jasJis Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 28 2006, 06:33 AM']Feel free to show where the Church states that aid should only be given to legal residents. That should be pretty easy for you. You've got the militant flag [right][snapback]924809[/snapback][/right] [/quote]Feel free to show where the Church states that immigrants should disregard the laws of the Nation they've adopted. Feel free to show where the Church states that a Government has no authority in regulating immigrants. That should be easy for you, you've got the militant flag. Back to reality. The point I'm making is classifying certain jobs as being without merit or dignity and not worthy of an American citizen and somehow we need to import hispanics, either legally or illegally in order to have cheap strawberries and tomatoes. The need and demand for labor will force the Government to streamline the legal immigrant proceedures. Legitimizing the presence of these workers removes most of the factors that allow them to be exploited. It's politics. Why is it we send Cubans escaping Fidel and atheism back, but we allow illegal Mexicans to pick fruit and clean our bathrooms? Because there aren't enough Cubans to pick fruit and once Cubans get asylum here they tap into the opportunites of this country and don't have to pick squash for pennies. Whereas the Mexicans are more plentiful and America benefits too much from their exploitation. Americans don't want to pay a fair price for tomatoes so we allow a system, whether it's "Guest Workers", or "Illegal Immigrant Rights" so we can have a seperate class of people who will do the hard jobs for nothing so we can buy tacos, so very tasty and good for you, for 79cents and our citizen children can work inside for $8 and not have to work outside at a 'demeaning' job.
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 So I'll take that as "Sorry hot stuff I can't demonstrate it" Which makes sense. Because the Church doesn't say it. In fact it teaches the opposite, Too bad you (and others) can't admit to it. I have yet to argue about any other point of the bill. So I really don't have to defend my position on those points. Yes I'm against the exploitation of illegal workers Yes I'm against illegal sex trades blah blah blah What I am also against is the section of the bill that makes it a felony to give aid to any illegal alien. It goes against Church teaching and I'm not going to ignore something so egregious because I don't have a problem with other parts of the bill. That's the reality
jasJis Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 (edited) There is a difference between giving aid to an illegal in order to assist them in maintaining their illegal status, and giving aid to an illegal with no political agenda and helping them break the cycle of exploitation and gaining legitimate status in the US. Mahoney is ignorantly playing politics and is not really interested in a cure. He'd rather treat a symptom and doesn't care about a cure. Again, I don't really care what the Catholic Church says, it doesn't follow it's own 'rules' anyway. But since you claim to care what the Church says, give a little attention to more of what it says. Can you say 'context'? [quote]2237 Political authorities are obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person. They will dispense justice humanely by respecting the rights of everyone, especially of families and the disadvantaged. The political rights attached to citizenship can and should be granted according to the requirements of the common good. They cannot be suspended by public authorities without legitimate and proportionate reasons. Political rights are meant to be exercised for the common good of the nation and the human community. The duties of citizens 2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community. 2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one's country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community. 2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country: Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45 [Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46 The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47 2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him. Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens. 2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49 When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50 2243 Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.[/quote] Edited March 28, 2006 by jasJis
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 [quote]There is a difference between giving aid to an illegal in order to assist them is maintaining their illegal status, and giving aid to an illegal with no political agenda and helping them break the cycle of exploitation and gaining legitimate status in the us.[/quote] Yes there is and the problem with the bill is that it does not draw any distinction between the two. Also please feel free to reference my earlier posts that state the Church's position on justice and the poor.
jasJis Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='Mar 28 2006, 07:37 AM']and the problem with the bill is that it does not draw any distinction between the two. [right][snapback]924850[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The problem is you are too lazy to read the bill. The link was provided and Ironmonk provided the excerpt. [quote]`(a) Criminal Offenses and Penalties- `(1) PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES- Except as provided in paragraph (3), a person shall be punished as provided under paragraph (2), if the person-- `(A) facilitates, encourages, directs, or induces a person to come to or enter the United States, or to cross the border to the United States, [b]knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to come to, enter, or cross the border to the United States;[/b] `(B) facilitates, encourages, directs, or induces a person to come to or enter the United States, or to cross the border to the United States, at a place other than a designated port of entry or place other than as designated by the Secretary of Homeland Security, [b]knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien and regardless of whether such alien has official permission or lawful authority to be in the United States;[/b] `© transports, moves, harbors, conceals, or shields from detection a person outside of the United States knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien in unlawful transit from 1 country to another or on the high seas, [b]under circumstances in which the alien is seeking to enter the United States without official permission or legal authority;[/b] `(D) encourages or induces a person to reside or remain in the United States, [b]knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to reside in or remain in the United States;[/b] `(E) transports or moves a person in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to enter or be in the United States,[b] if the transportation or movement will further the alien's illegal entry into or illegal presence in the United States;[/b] `(F) harbors, conceals, or shields from detection a person in the United States, [b]knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such person is an alien who lacks lawful authority to be in the United States; or[/b] `(G) conspires or attempts to commit any of the acts described in subparagraphs (A) through (F)."[/quote] Edited March 28, 2006 by jasJis
Jaime Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 28 2006, 08:57 AM']The problem is you are too lazy to read the bill. The link was provided and Ironmonk provided the excerpt. [right][snapback]924875[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The real problem is that you don't have the comprehension to see who actually quoted the bill. Ironmonk quoted the wrong one Also you don't seem to understand English. What exactly do you think reckless disregard means?
AngelofJesus Posted March 28, 2006 Author Posted March 28, 2006 [quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 28 2006, 03:23 AM']It doesn't matter if opposing the bill is technically Catholic or not. IM presented a legitmate Catholic perspective that did not agree with you. The Catholic Church also fostered homosexuality in priests, protected molesters, and let priests leave the country to avoid prosecution. Not exactly a stellar record in practicing morality in the real world, even though it was morally nice to claim to have forgiven the priest and helped him seek treatment... 1. Then get your wife to introduce to to a few illegals and get to know them. The only way to break the cycle of being trapped in slave conditions is to force them to come to the US as legals. We have the jobs for them. The system needs to change where they are recognized and protected by the Government and that means they have to recognize and obey the Gov. 2. Catholic charities should probably follow ALL the Catholic rusles which include respecting the legitimate immigration laws of the US. It is easier to immigrate here than any other major country. 3. Flat out, you have no clue. I've done harder work for less than $10 an hour within the last few years. Some of my current employees work harder for less. You are incredibly naive and arrogant and seperated from reality to claim that it will take a unionized work force and $30 an hour. That's incredibly stupid and I'm shocked to think that came from someone old enough to be married. $10 an hour goes alot further when you are here legally and don't have to live in a camp, be driven to work by the farmer, are not afraid to report crimes, are not afraid to go to a hospital, are not afraid to seek social services. Providing decent worker pay and benefits is a cost of processing food. If it makes tomatoes $10 each, then that's what a tomato costs. The US must eliminate the pool of illegal or 'second-class' labor. If a Mexican can pick squash, so can an American citizen. There should be no difference in the way they are treated. [right][snapback]924779[/snapback][/right] [/quote] 1. You dont get it. I am surrounded by illegal immigrants. The godparents of my children are illegal immigrants. If there is a single possible way of coming here legally, they would do it. Tell me one possible way for them to come here legally. ONE! 2. Again, catholic charities are just following Jesus' example. What is so hard to understand? 3. I am shocked to see that you're church militant and non-catholic. What an oxymoron. Have you ever picked tomatoes? How do you know it's easy. Your more naive than I am if you think picking vegetables in acres and acres of land is easy. Come on ask me if I have ever worked as a tomato picker. Ask me if I can still stand straight without straining my back. YOU DONT KNOW ME LITTLE MAN. If you can call people you dont even know stupid, insult them and not know anything about them, what does that say about you? Furthermore, I am for legal immigrants and americans working as vegetable pickers and for working conditions to improve. But not helping people in need is not the way to do it. Even if i was not catholic, I would still help illegals with their basic needs just because they are human beings.
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