The Current Immigration Problem

[jasJis]

I love topics that are heated with emotion and intelectual dishonesty. Passion is a good thing, though often misguided.
But n-e ways...
Just read an interesting article in the Florida Catholic. (No, I didn't re-join, my parish donations (past) gets me free subscription for life)

They broke it down into some very good points (or [u]principles[/u] )they will support and what they won't support.

Some of the things they want:
Easier and fast ways for immigrants to become citizens.
Ways to protect immigrant workers that are in 'tranisition'.
TEMPORARY guest worker status that is legal and is protected from exploitation.
Removal of delays in immigration process that keeps families apart.

Some things they don't want:
ILLEGAL immigration.
Workers that are forced into a postion where they are exploited.
Short term remedies or remedies that don't fix a broken system.
Remedies that put US Citizens in jepoardy.

The HOW is wide open to argument. Above are principles that should be established in resolving the problem. Experts and knowledgeable people are the ones that should be charged with developing how to implement principles. What the public should be debating now are which principles should be established that will provide a framework for the solutions.

What other [b]principles[/b] do YOU who call yourselves Catholic or Christian think should be added or eliminated to the above list from the USCCB?

Edited April 2, 2006 by jasJis

[Jaime]

That giving aid to an illegal should not be a felony

[Sojourner]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 2 2006, 03:03 PM']I love topics that are heated with emotion and intelectual dishonesty.  Passion is a good thing, though often misguided. 
But n-e ways...
Just read an interesting article in the Florida Catholic.  (No, I didn't re-join, my parish donations (past) gets me free subscription for life)

They broke it down into some very good points (or [u]principles[/u] )they will support and what they won't support.

Some of the things they want:
Easier and fast ways for immigrants to become citizens.
Ways to protect immigrant workers that are in 'tranisition'.
TEMPORARY guest worker status that is legal and is protected from exploitation.
Removal of delays in immigration process that keeps families apart.

Some things they don't want:
ILLEGAL immigration.
Workers that are forced into a postion where they are exploited.
Short term remedies or remedies that don't fix a broken system.
Remedies that put US Citizens in jepoardy.

The HOW is wide open to argument.  Above are principles that should be established in resolving the problem.  Experts and knowledgeable people are the ones that should be charged with developing how to implement principles.  What the public should be debating now are which principles should be established that will provide a framework for the solutions. 

What other [b]principles[/b] do YOU who call yourselves Catholic or Christian think should be added or eliminated to the above list from the USCCB?
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I think I can pretty much concur with both of the lists ... I'd add to the "things I want" list the following: A means for current undocumented immigrants to gain legal status.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 2 2006, 03:13 PM']I think I can pretty much concur with both of the lists ... I'd add to the "things I want" list the following: A means for current undocumented immigrants to gain legal status.
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[/quote]I agree with that. (Let's not get into a fight about having current illegal immigrants getting legal status for $2,000). But they should get in line, with those who have been here the longest first in line.

[Charms717RM1]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 2 2006, 04:54 PM']I agree with that.  (Let's not get into a fight about having current illegal immigrants getting legal status for $2,000).  But they should get in line, with those who have been here the longest first in line.
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I third that. But about those who've been here the longest being first in line- yeah that would be more fair and just, but because they are undocumented workers, it will be very difficult to figure out who's been here the longest and should be bumped to the top of the line. Wouldn't it? I see chaos and dishonesty if we go that route, even though it's a good idea.

Maybe we could have a first come first serve system to figure out who'll be first in line? Just have whoever shows up at the office first be first in line to get their legal status taken care of.

[ironmonk]

Funny... that's what I was saying.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 2 2006, 05:54 PM']I agree with that.  (Let's not get into a fight about having current illegal immigrants getting legal status for $2,000).  But they should get in line, with those who have been here the longest first in line.
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[/quote]
I agree, let's not get into a fight about that.

The "how" of it I'm ambivalent about. But the current system (and the proposed system) does not adequately address CURRENT undocumented immigrants. Gotta find a way of addressing that short of deportation.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 2 2006, 07:04 PM']Funny... that's what I was saying.
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[/quote]
Was it? I must have been ignoring you.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Charms717RM1' date='Apr 2 2006, 04:48 PM']I third that. But about those who've been here the longest being first in line- yeah that would be more fair and just, but because they are undocumented workers, it will be very difficult to figure out who's been here the longest and should be bumped to the top of the line.  Wouldn't it?  I see chaos and dishonesty if we go that route, even though it's a good idea.

Maybe we could have a first come first serve system to figure out who'll be first in line?  Just have whoever shows up at the office first be first in line to get their legal status taken care of.
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[/quote]Nothing's perfect, and we are trying to avoid hows. Do you have any principles you'd add (or remove) from the list above? Maybe you read a similar article? Got ideas?

[Charms717RM1]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 2 2006, 06:26 PM']Nothing's perfect, and we are trying to avoid hows.  Do you have any principles you'd add (or remove) from the list above?  Maybe you read a similar article? Got ideas?
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[/quote]


oops, sorry! I was in a hurry when i read your first post and I totally missed the point of us avoiding the hows- my apologies! I'll keep my mouth shut until i read carefully next time...

As for adding onto the list of principles... Hmmm, i'm not sure- they sound pretty good to me. Except that maybe in addition to first one "Easier and fast ways for immigrants to become citizens", we could also make it more appealing for immigrants to become citizens. I guess that goes hand in hand with making the system easier, but I think that if the advantages of citizenship were made clearer or given a greater emphasis- more immigrants would want to become citizens.

What do you think?

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 2 2006, 12:40 PM']That giving aid to an illegal should not be a felony
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I second that.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' date='Apr 3 2006, 01:26 AM']I second that.
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The bill doesn't imply that giving someone food and water will be a felony.

Encouraging someone to remain illegally in the United States would be a felony... any good Catholic wouldn't have to worry about this one because a good Catholic that listens to the USCCB and Catholic Teaching would not help someone remain in the US illegally.

Because of the severity of the injustice done to illegal aliens and the numbers of businesses that take advantage of them, I think it should be a felony to encourage illegal aliens to remain in the US.

As illegal alien numbers drop, a better system of immigration which allows people to enter the US more easily if they do not have criminal records. If they do have criminal records, it would depend on the crime and need to be looked at on a case by case basis.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Jaime]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 3 2006, 12:45 AM']The bill doesn't imply that giving someone food and water will be a felony.

Encouraging someone to remain illegally in the United States would be a felony... any good Catholic wouldn't have to worry about this one because a good Catholic that listens to the USCCB and Catholic Teaching would not help someone remain in the US illegally.

Because of the severity of the injustice done to illegal aliens and the numbers of businesses that take advantage of them, I think it should be a felony to encourage illegal aliens to remain in the US.

As illegal alien numbers drop, a better system of immigration which allows people to enter the US more easily if they do not have criminal records. If they do have criminal records, it would depend on the crime and need to be looked at on a case by case basis.

God Bless,
ironmonk
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Actually it does leave it open to prosecute anyone who helps illegals and its been shown in previous threads. Just because you disagree does not make it untrue. You would be more aware of it if you hadn't set Sojourner and myself to "ignore".

Edited April 3, 2006 by jaime

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 2 2006, 10:45 PM']The bill doesn't imply that giving someone food and water will be a felony.

Encouraging someone to remain illegally in the United States would be a felony... any good Catholic wouldn't have to worry about this one because a good Catholic that listens to the USCCB and Catholic Teaching would not help someone remain in the US illegally.

Because of the severity of the injustice done to illegal aliens and the numbers of businesses that take advantage of them, I think it should be a felony to encourage illegal aliens to remain in the US.

As illegal alien numbers drop, a better system of immigration which allows people to enter the US more easily if they do not have criminal records. If they do have criminal records, it would depend on the crime and need to be looked at on a case by case basis.

God Bless,
ironmonk
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[/quote]

How do you encourage illegals to stay? When do you cross the line? What is perceived as aiding and abetting vs. humanitarian?

For example, an illegal has been without food for days, he thought that at least at home he has beans and tortillas, so he decides to leave and go back home. As he starts his journey he finds a charity center that gives anyone food regardless of status. He decides to stay.

Is the charity center guilty? It certainly encouraged the illegal to stay.

[Apathy]

Some people say that giving a loaf of bread is a good thing, others will just take it from your hands.

Live and let live I say.

[jasJis]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' date='Apr 3 2006, 09:19 AM']How do you encourage illegals to stay? When do you cross the line? What is perceived as aiding and abetting vs. humanitarian?

For example, an illegal has been without food for days, he thought  that at least at home he has beans and tortillas, so he decides to leave and go back home.  As he starts his journey he finds a charity center that gives anyone food regardless of status.  He decides to stay. 

Is the charity center guilty? It certainly encouraged the illegal to stay.
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AoJ,
Overly hypothetical and not conducive to the thread. So your principle would be...?

[Jaime]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 3 2006, 03:20 PM']AoJ,
Overly hypothetical and not conducive to the thread.  So your principle would be...?
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He's simply addressing Ironmonks mistaken position

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 3 2006, 01:20 PM']AoJ,
Overly hypothetical and not conducive to the thread.  So your principle would be...?
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It'snot overly hypothetical, in fact it's not hypothetical at all. I sometimes volunteer with soup kitchens and see it all the time. My prinicple would be to let me and others feed the hungry without having to ask them if they have green cards or not.

[jasJis]

AoJ,
It's unneccessary for this thread. Go post it in JRD's thread where it is topically more appropriate, or keep it a bit more general. For example: Suggest clear limits on aid that can be provided to illegal immigrants.
The Bishops don't support or condone illegal immigration so it's pointless to encourage more to come as illegals until a system can be developed and establish the 11 million we have that are mostly being exploited. Don't ruin the ship for a happeth of tar.

[AngelofJesus]

JasJis,

I have no other problem with what is being proposed. I think this country has the right to tighten or loosen it's immigration policies anyway it sees fit to protect it's citizen. Personally, I wish they would give amnesty to the illegals that are already here now. And work out an easier way to give temporary working visas for people that would like a chance to work here. Just don't cross the line of penalizing people or charities for not caring if the people they help have green cards or not. Help, meaning, that all they do is provide food.

In addtion, if everyone who wants to come here is entertained, ID'd, and documented then people crossing the border would lessen. It also would provide the government a way of tracking who is who and where is who. Businesses won't be able to exploit workers because they can actually call the police without fear of deportation. It works both ways. or maybe I'm just not getting this thread.