How long do you think you'll spend in purgatory

[jmjtina]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1604936' date='Jul 21 2008, 09:08 PM']I thought that myself not long ago at all, but a couple of people on Phatmass said that was a misunderstanding... it's actually time off of earthly/temporal penances, not Purgatory. Earthly penances used to be a lot stricter back then. The Church also no longer states years or days (just partial or plenary), due to the common misunderstanding of the teaching. That's what people have told me here, anyway.[/quote]

yeah, I was gonna ask that on the Q&A board to make sure.

[Fr. Antony Maria OSB]

jmjtina, I was not referencing you or anyone else directly: just making an observation. I am sorry if I came across as judgemental myself: I did not mean to. And I by no means am positive of where I will go when I die. To be completely honest, I don't think about it too much: right now I'm just trying to figure out what it is that God wants me to do with my life here on earth. I have great hope that I will get to heaven someday, and have faith that God grants each person the grace to get there with His help (whether it be through purgatory or straight to heaven) coupled with the good works that each person does. Again, I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else.

[jmjtina]

NazFarmer, none taken. My sister is always telling me to use more smilies because people can't hear my tone of voice.

I hate it when she's right.

Edited July 22, 2008 by jmjtina

[jmjtina]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1604936' date='Jul 21 2008, 09:08 PM']I thought that myself not long ago at all, but a couple of people on Phatmass said that was a misunderstanding... it's actually time off of earthly/temporal penances, not Purgatory. Earthly penances used to be a lot stricter back then. The Church also no longer states years or days (just partial or plenary), due to the common misunderstanding of the teaching. That's what people have told me here, anyway.[/quote]

Your right.

I stand [url="http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=23482"]corrected.[/url] Thanks!

[quote]Time, at least as we know it in this life, may not exist in the next life. So it wouldn't be possible to calculate purgatory as if it were a prison sentence from which we could be sprung early for "good behavior." All that we know about purgatory is that it is a state of cleansing from the temporal consequences due forgiven sins, that the cleansing will in some manner be painful, and that those of us here on earth can help release the souls in purgatory by our prayers for them.

God, in his infinite justice and mercy, will certainly take into account all circumstances that mitigate personal culpability for sin and all that we do in this life to atone for past sins. Beyond that, it is probably best not to worry about the specifics of how much "time" people spend being cleansed in the next life.

Recommended reading:

[url="http://www.envoymagazine.com/planetenvoy/special-purgatoryemergencyroom1.htm"]Purgatory: God's Emergency Room for Sinners[/url] by Patrick Madrid[/quote]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm"]and on indulgences (days/years)[/url]

[quote]An indulgence is the extra-sacramental remission of the temporal punishment due, in God's justice, to sin that has been forgiven, which remission is granted by the Church in the exercise of the power of the keys, through the application of the superabundant merits of Christ and of the saints, and for some just and reasonable motive.[/quote]

Edited July 22, 2008 by jmjtina

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1604929' date='Jul 22 2008, 12:02 AM']Honestly, false humility is in the eyes of the beholder and frankly, I am praying to become detached from worldly praise or false accusation. So what difference does it make what anyone thinks of my statement? I claim neither humility nor any falsehood. It's just a fact.[/quote]

I'm not the judge of humility, but I do know that I'm a Catholic because I believe the Church is the true path to Heaven. Why would I bother going to Mass if I'm not looking forward with hope to being in Heaven? Excessive focus on one's own sins is a form of pride, in which we tread dangerously close to committing sin against the Holy Spirit by believing that our sins are too great for God's grace. Just how big and mighty do we think we are if God cannot forgive us?

On the other side of that coin is the other extreme, where some Christians believe all should be forgiven. They overlook the command to repentance and perfection in following Christ. As in most everything, the key is balance between these unhealthy extremes, which is exactly where the Church leads us.

Some of this I'm talking about comes from "The Spiritual Combat" by Fr. Lorenzo Scupoli, which the Into the Deep podcast has been discussing for about 50 episodes... I'm hardly one-tenth through it. A lot to chew on even without reading the book.

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1604929' date='Jul 22 2008, 12:02 AM']Your statement itself is an extreme that dances with protestant thought. It seems your almost positive your going to purgatory. Well, I wish I was positive I was dying in grace, but I don't know the time or the hour, so I pray and hope for God's mercy.[/quote]

I never speculated on my own estimation about my own judgment. That's God's call. As Catholics, we hope for Heaven knowing that Christ's promises are true and unyielding. As far as I know, I'm giving the Catholic doctrine of purgatory in my own words, not dancing with Protestant thought. But if I am, I'd like to know so I'm not in error.

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1604929' date='Jul 22 2008, 12:02 AM']Remember, I said I deserve Hell, not that I was sure I was going there. Again, my hope is in God's Mercy and grace; which is enough.[/quote]

Then I wasn't replying to you specifically in saying that. Others, however, have said in as many words that they're going to Hell. That seems like an odd stance to take.

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1604929' date='Jul 22 2008, 12:02 AM']As for canonized saints not being in heaven, to say they are in purgatory is not correct either. While it is my personal opinion that the canonized saints are in heaven (thus allowing miracles) I don't think the Church says yes or no, but actually allows the saint to be celebrated. This is a great question for another thread or for the q&a board.[/quote]

Canonizations are infallible declarations of the Church, so there's no question about where they are. What we do not know is whether they endured any purging between death and Heaven. The Church never makes a statement on that, so we pray for the souls of the faithful departed and seek the intercession of those we have reason to believe are in Heaven in order to obtain the miracles needed for their canonization.

Edited July 22, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='935970' date='Apr 4 2006, 10:55 PM']How long do you think you'll spend in purgatory if you make it there?[/quote]

I fully expect to make it to Purgatory. The virtue of hope is important I think. But I plan on being there for quite awhile, possibly till the end of the world.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1604477' date='Jul 21 2008, 11:20 AM']Ironically, the only lonely place is Hell.

Of course, some people probably love being alone... maybe if they go, their Hell is a big party.

I can't tell if this thread is a joke or not. Why are so many Catholics who are otherwise knowledgeable about their faith stuck on this idea that there is time in purgatory? It's never been taught that way by anyone... ever.[/quote]

it's a way for people to understand the gravity and length (whether it is actual time or not) of Purgatory. Even pre-Vatican II (not sure how its done now) prayer books and such would attach a certain amount of time out of purgatory if you said a certain prayer (i.e. 300 days etc.)

[LouisvilleFan]

Maybe all you people who think you're going to spend half an eternity in purgatory will have plenty of time for reading the Catechism.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1604936' date='Jul 21 2008, 10:08 PM']I thought that myself not long ago at all, but a couple of people on Phatmass said that was a misunderstanding... it's actually time off of earthly/temporal penances, not Purgatory.[/quote]

maybe I don't understand the concept perfectly but from what I know, the earthly penances relay into time in Purgatory. If you do not fulfill your penances on earth, then you spend time in Purgatory continuing the cleansing process. Because if you go to Purgatory then you don't have any mortal sins, you are there to cleanse yourself of venial sins and unfulfilled penance on earth. Now, I don't know if there has ever been an authoritative decision either way on whether or not there is actually a concept of time in Purgatory, but I don't think its wrong to think so. Maybe not an exact duplication of time on earth, but I think 300 days in Purgatory relates to less time than 3 years (longer time).

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1605073' date='Jul 22 2008, 04:18 AM']Maybe all you people who think you're going to spend half an eternity in purgatory will have plenty of time for reading the Catechism. [/quote]

really inappropriate joke about to come out... no wait, I can hold it in. barely

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1605075' date='Jul 22 2008, 06:28 AM']maybe I don't understand the concept perfectly but from what I know, the earthly penances relay into time in Purgatory. If you do not fulfill your penances on earth, then you spend time in Purgatory continuing the cleansing process. Because if you go to Purgatory then you don't have any mortal sins, you are there to cleanse yourself of venial sins and unfulfilled penance on earth. Now, I don't know if there has ever been an authoritative decision either way on whether or not there is actually a concept of time in Purgatory, but I don't think its wrong to think so. Maybe not an exact duplication of time on earth, but I think 300 days in Purgatory relates to less time than 3 years (longer time).[/quote]

Check [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=50292&view=findpost&p=1604972"]this post[/url] above.

Remember, we don't cleanse ourselves; Christ cleanses us. In purgatory, there is nothing we can do for ourselves or others, which is why we pray for the souls there.

As for time, I don't think there is a teaching either way on it, simply because we hardly know much about purgatory to begin with. There is definitely nothing like an equivalent scale of time in purgatory versus time on earthy. Don't know where you heard that, but that person really needs to crack open a Catechism.

[picchick]

My only hope is to make it to Purgatory. I am shooting for heaven but I am definitely not perfect. But I hope that by shooting for heaven, if I come up short, I will land in Purgatory. My sins are great. It is by God's mercy alone that I spend time in purgatory. I leave up my debt to God who has so graciously forgiven me.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1605078' date='Jul 22 2008, 04:58 AM']Check [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=50292&view=findpost&p=1604972"]this post[/url] above.

Remember, we don't cleanse ourselves; Christ cleanses us. In purgatory, there is nothing we can do for ourselves or others, which is why we pray for the souls there.

As for time, I don't think there is a teaching either way on it, simply because we hardly know much about purgatory to begin with. There is definitely nothing like an equivalent scale of time in purgatory versus time on earthy. Don't know where you heard that, but that person really needs to crack open a Catechism. [/quote]

Well I have to believe that purging both venial sins and temporal punishment is part of the Purgatorial process. Of course Christ cleanses us, but he uses Purgatory as one means of doing so if we die with only minor sins and earthly penances on our soul. I don't think I said the time was equivalent, only that the concept of longer time vs. shorter time can be similar. And since there is no teaching either way, I don't think its wrong to believe in a concept of time (literal or not).

and I have no interest in cracking open a CCC any time soon.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='picchick' post='1605592' date='Jul 22 2008, 11:31 PM']My only hope is to make it to Purgatory. I am shooting for heaven but I am definitely not perfect. But I hope that by shooting for heaven, if I come up short, I will land in Purgatory. My sins are great. It is by God's mercy alone that I spend time in purgatory. I leave up my debt to God who has so graciously forgiven me.[/quote]

Although purgatory is filled with hope, it isn't what we are hoping for. The pope's theme was "Christ Our Hope," not "Purgatory Our Hope."

Trying to think of an analogy... let's say someone has always dreamed of seeing Paris, for example, but maybe they never had the means to afford a flight and be away from work and responsibilities at home. They know their dream is impossible by their own means. Fortunately, a good friend steps in and offers to buy a plane ticket and a hotel room for a week (complete with that standard view of the Eiffel Tower you always see through the window in movies ), so this person finally gets to go. Would it make any sense for this person to look forward to the plane ride more than Paris itself? Or does it makes sense to hope, "If I can't make it to Paris, I at least hope to get on a plane going there and see the airport!"

Airports can be fun (to some people, anyway), but riding in a plane and walking through an airport and buying silly French trinkets at the gift shop are all simply means to the end: experiencing Paris. That's the dream, in spite of everything that holds this person back from realizing it.

Likewise, Heaven is our dream, in spite of our sins and complete unworthiness, we mustn't dwell on what holds us back. Focusing on our sins is a form of pride because it's self-centered rather than Christ-centered. We do an examination of conscience and go to Confession not to become better people, but to grow closer to Christ. By effect, we will become "better" people (only in the estimation of others), because we're becoming more fully alive and human.


Maybe that helps explain the point I'm trying to get across... I think one of the problems is there isn't much definitive Church teaching on purgatory and not much written about it from a theological or devotional standpoint (not counting private revelations). So many legends and weird ideas have crept into Catholics' minds and I don't see how any of it matches up with the authentic teaching. Maybe one of the priests here can shed some light...

[Deb]

Unless I turn totally from God and commit a bunch of mortal sins and reject repentence, I don't plan on going to hell.

I have confessed and received absolution for all of my sins of my past. I try very hard to not sin but, I do and I confess again.
I assume I will have to have some purifying going on before I could go to heaven, unless somehow God decides to really transform me into a Saint while I am still here on earth. We are all called to be Saints so that is still an option.

We should be focusing on loving our Lord and living as he has commanded us to do and then we don't really have to worry about what shall occur in the afterlife. I think I will be in heaven but, not right away.
If one day in the court of the Lord is like a thousand others, will a thousand days in purgatory be only one of God's glorious days? I could be there for a very long time. I must recruit millions to pray for me every day after I die.

[Selah]

Haha! We'll all be praying for you

I plan to meet a soul along the way, should she still be there...perhaps I can comfort her...

[Autumn Dusk]

forever.

but I probably won't go there becuase god dosn't want me.

[Selah]

Of course he does.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Deb' post='1605955' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:13 PM']I could be there for a very long time. I must recruit millions to pray for me every day after I die. [/quote]

I think you'd be better off praying for souls in purgatory while you are here... then you probably won't need the prayers after you die

[Lilllabettt]

I have no intention of going to Purgatory.

Maybe I will respond fully to grace later this afternoon and live a lifetime of heroic sanctity hereafter. Or maybe it will happen the second before I die.

God wants me to skip Purgatory, and He often finds a way to get what He wants. Suffering purifies us, but so can love. I think God can make me love Him totally and perfectly. I've asked for this too, and I don't think He'll refuse me unless He absolutely must.

I'll try my best and God will make up for what I lack.

So if I go to Purgatory, I will be a little suprised.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Lilllabettt