Notre Dame will allow "Vagina Monologues"

[shortnun]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Apr 6 2006, 09:35 PM']Indeed there is a need for the true liberation of women. Women, in the right context should be talk about their body parts.

However, woman degrading thier body parts, even for the sake or at least the supposed sake of truth, is not acceptable.

The VM's are crude, do not promote healing, and indeed set feminism back. There is nothing wholesome or liberating about them. They are shameless and admit of being so.
EDIT TO FRUSTRATEDLY ADD

The VM address those issuses, but not in a healthy way. THEY CONDONE THEM, THEY CONDONE SIN. If you want to really minister to people YOU CANNOT CONDONE THIER SIN.
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Theo.... where do we draw the line b/w ministering to people [u]created within the image of God[/u] and "loving the sinner, but hating the sin"? That's slightly rhetorical, but what am I (or you, or anyone else) supposed to do when I'm working in a parish one day and some man comes to me and says "I beat my wife." Do I respond, "I'm sorry, but I don't condone that, so I don't really know how to help you"?

You know, I'm probably with you on the idea that the VM can be counterproductive for feminists (and for the "movement" as a whole). But I refuse to think that no healing can come from them, particularly if/when the Catholic church is given an opportunity to respond to the needs of the women (and men) who are so traumatized by the events they recount.

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Apr 6 2006, 09:38 PM']how many people are going to stick around after the play to listen to why everything in it is wrong?  Like 5, that's how many.  How do you put it in Catholic context if you don't force people to sit down and learn it?
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One word: [b]Freedom[/b] The Catholic Church does not condone cramming something down one's throat so that they learn the faith.

[i]If five people stay, then you speak to them and pray that the Holy Spirit's words are the only ones that come out of your mouth.[/i]

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Apr 6 2006, 10:46 PM']One word: [b]Freedom[/b] The Catholic Church does not condone cramming something down one's throat so that they learn the faith.

[i]If five people stay, then you speak to them and pray that the Holy Spirit's words are the only ones that come out of your mouth.[/i]
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So, five people stay and the rest walk away with an affirmed Vagina worldview. Great. Not good enough. Freedom means they can go to another place and watch it. Freedom means that a Catholic school can choose not to show it.

[Theoketos]

[quote]Theo.... where do we draw the line b/w ministering to people created within the image of God and "loving the sinner, but hating the sin"? That's slightly rhetorical, but what am I (or you, or anyone else) supposed to do when I'm working in a parish one day and some man comes to me and says "I beat my wife." Do I respond, "I'm sorry, but I don't condone that, so I don't really know how to help you"?[/quote]

That is really really really easy.

Do nothing that is contrary to the dignity of the human person. The [i]personalistic norm[/i] is what makes John Paul II so great.

The VM is contrary to the dignity of the human person. Repeating them is contrary to the dignity of actress saying them. Hearing them is contrary to the dignity of the audiance.

And of course there can be healing from it, but THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS.

Just so you know, what you are saying is directly contrary to the natural law. And although I believe you to be a sincere, and a sincerely caring person, what you say is wrong and contrary to healing and healing through the Church.

Just because some one is sincere, does not make the right.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Apr 6 2006, 10:19 PM']Catholic context means that these issues named above are [i]brought into conversation with[/i] Catholic teachings on such issues. Telling people that X, Y, and Z are wrong is a waste of time if you don't tell them [b]why[/b]! It is the duty of the Church to form the conscience of the people so they can best learn how to appropriate faith and reason in their moral decision making. And again, I am filled with hope by Fr. Jenkins' statements, and pray for a fruitful conversation as a result of these events.[right][snapback]938317[/snapback][/right][/quote]
you can bring the issues in to conversation w/o promoting a play that is in direct contradiction of Church teaching. its not like we [i][b]need[/b][/i] this silly work of "art" before we can talk about the proper way to understand female sexuality.

[JudgedByGod]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Apr 6 2006, 11:19 PM']You're very correct. The real world should not be about masturbation, rape, and fornication. The school is not condoning masturbation, rape, or fornication by permitting it to be performed there! Imagine if there are students on campus caught up in some of those activities. How is anyone going to be able to [i]address [/i]those situations and [i]minister [/i]to those people unless the issues are [u]directly addressed[/u]?
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You're right, these issues do need to be addressed. I do realize that we don't talk about them as often as we should. However, by bringing them up in such a liberal and feminist manner, you are only helping the actions to continue. In order to fight these things, an approach that states that they are wrong and sinful is the only way to go. You can't expect a play that encourages such behavior to actually help in this battle.

When I read VM's, it spoke specifically about how liberating all of these actions were. That doesn't seem like there are any intentions of ending them. In fact, they are encouraging and provoking women to use and look at their bodies in this horribly sinful way. Women should not be considered an object or merely defined by our feminine organs. They are not who we are. Loving ourselves and having men understand our true beauty will not be found by masturbation or fornicating. We need to address these issues and realize that they will only lead to lust and therefore only emotionally hurt ourselves.

It is plays and teachings like this that have not given women more rights, but instead has taken them away. We have lost alot of respect from men as they no longer know how they are supposed to treat us. We have lost our own self images and have turned them into a lust that can only harm ourselves. But most importantly, we are going against God's will for us to love ourselves and eachother. We cannot expect to truly love eachother if we understand who we are by our bodies rather than examining our souls.

[OP_MOM]

I always seem to come in on the end of these things...sorry.

My opinion on all of this is that we should follow the example of Jesus as He ministered the people. He didn't avoid sinners - He confronted them. He forgave them. He told them not to sin again. But the one thing that He never did was invite them to put on a display of their wrongdoing for others to discuss. Sounds pretty simple to me. :

[crazymaine catholic]

amen to that OP MOM! :

[stbernardLT]

Aw man! I thought this thread was about the Virginia Monologues. Oh well.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 5 2006, 05:20 PM']I can only hope that you're being sarcastic here!

Are you seriously saying that you think "engaging the wider culture" means that Catholic institutions must host such smut??
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[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 6 2006, 06:04 PM']Sometimes I just can't believe what people post on these boards!
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I could not agree more with you. At 1st I too thought sojourner was being sarcastic...or at least I hoped and gave her the benefit of the doubt. But, all in all it doesn't particularly surprise me that some of the liberals here support the Vagina Monologues

Edit: btw, this IS Notre Dame after all, so I am not surprised that they decided to go with it. I would have dropped dead from shock if they had shut it down

Edited April 7, 2006 by notardillacid

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:04 PM']It seems by the logic used here that it would be a good thing for Catholic schools to host the showing of hard-core porno films  (all in the context of fuller discussion, of course), or for Catholic parishes to invite strippers to perform in the parish hall (not to endorse it, of course).  And while we’re at it, let’s put copies of [i]Hustler [/i]magazine in the rack alongside the diocesine newsletter in the back of the church!  (all in the name of “Catholic teaching to dialogue” of course)

I’m sure the liberals here would find such things quite “refreshing”!

I mean, after all, such things are part of the  “wider culture” out there in the “real world,” and the Catholic Faith has nothing to fear from them!  Catholics don’t need to “run away and hide” from such stuff! 
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I love how you feel free to put words into my mouth. {note: That is sarcasm}

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:04 PM']Such nonsense is hardly “refreshing,” but has been going on in secularized “Catholic” universities across the country for 40 years now, all in the name of “academic freedom” and “dialogue.”

With what results?  With a body of Catholic graduates better able to engage and evangelize the “wider culture”?

The facts speak otherwise.  These universities have in reality lost much of their Catholic identity.  Students learn all kinds of trendy Lefty ideologies and fads, but are clueless about Catholic doctrine.  Studies show a majority of graduates of “mainstream” “Catholic” universities lose the Faith by the time they graduate.
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Studies show a majority of graduates of small solidly orthodox Catholic “colleges” have their heads buried in the “sand.”

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:04 PM']I was fortunate enough to attend a small, solidly orthodox Catholic college that was founded as an antidote for this kind of garbage.  No such offensive plays or movies were shown there.  Yeah, I know you’ll go on about that being “stifling,” “sheltered,” blah, blah, blah.  However, overall, graduates of  genuinely Catholic schools such as Christendom, FUS, etc. have a much better record of keeping and defending the Faith,  even in hostile environments, than those of the mainstream “Catholic” universities.
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So, you’ve been able to poll people in heaven, then? You’re saying that the majority of college graduates who made it through the pearly gates went to “genuinely Catholic schools such as Christendom, FUS, etc.”? Because I know a lot of people from conservative backgrounds and liberal backgrounds alike who have struggled with their faith. Some have come back; some haven’t, but I pray they will.

I think there are good things that can come of training kids in a conservative, supportive environment. I also think there are good things that can come by creating an atmosphere where dialogue about difficult subjects is supported and encouraged, and where different voices are respected. But then I’m sure that’s just so much liberal claptrap. Listening to what people say without jumping all over them and putting words in their mouths! How awful!

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:04 PM']College-aged people are still learning and forming their core beliefs.  Catholic universities should teach them the Truth, not be wasting their time with carp like “The Vagina Monologues” and Gay Film Festivals.
...
Besides, most students have plenty of opportunity to watch smut or engage in immorality on their own time, if they so choose, anyway. 
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So ... you’re saying that the students who would choose to watch these things are a lost cause? That we shouldn’t try to engage them in dialogue about what they think? We should just preach to them the error of their ways, and then wash our hands of them if they don’t listen?

If they’re going to watch them anyway, why not watch them in a setting in which the Truth can be presented as well as carp they’re going to watch anyway? If college is such a tender age at which to form people’s consciences and core beliefs, why not present people who would otherwise not hear it with authentic Catholicism, and authentically Christian take on the play or movie they just watched?

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:04 PM']Perhaps you could try explaining what advantages Catholic students who see “The Vagina Monologues” and watch homosexual porn have over those who don’t?  How does listending to women talk crudely about their body parts and lesbian rape, or watching sodomy on screen, advance the intellectual, spiritual, or educational growth of young Catholics?
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For starters, they’ve earned the right to actually critique the play or film they’ve just watched, which puts them in a position to actually be able to build relationship and dialogue with people they might not agree with. I know that’s a foreign concept to you, but lots of people do find it appealing to hear others’ viewpoints and try to understand where they’re coming from. They find it can be a useful tool in “evangelization” and “ministering to others.”

[Theoketos]

[qutoe]For starters, they’ve earned the right to actually critique the play or film they’ve just watched, which puts them in a position to actually be able to build relationship and dialogue with people they might not agree with...(I purposely edited out persoanl attacks)...lots of people do find it appealing to hear others’ viewpoints and try to understand where they’re coming from. They find it can be a useful tool in “evangelization” and “ministering to others.” [/quote]

What you say is true and necessary, about hearing and critiquing opposing positions, however, there is no means to critique this play.

What would you say about a porno being shown, should we all go and hear and see what porno really is? Should we see the sin so we can evangelize it? No, of coarse not, because you know better then that.

Not allowing the VM would not be about blocking out opposing positions, it instead should be about not condoning them. When you allow a play to be shown you condone the morality and the message of the play. The monologues morality is essentially contrary to the moral law and the dignity of the feminine genius.

I would be for a specialized class on the topic, in which students could read them to discuss them. But to engage in the play is not better then watching porno. It may be worse because it is porno in disguise.

Inculturalization is not about sinking down to the level of heathen culture, instead it about bringing the culture up, baptizing it.

Please do not let your dislike of the character Socrates blind you to this.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:29 PM'][quote]For starters, they’ve earned the right to actually critique the play or film they’ve just watched, which puts them in a position to actually be able to build relationship and dialogue with people they might not agree with...(I purposely edited out persoanl attacks)...lots of people do find it appealing to hear others’ viewpoints and try to understand where they’re coming from. They find it can be a useful tool in “evangelization” and “ministering to others.” [/quote]

What you say is true and necessary, about hearing and critiquing opposing positions, however, there is no means to critique this play.

What would you say about a porno being shown, should we all go and hear and see what porno really is? Should we see the sin so we can evangelize it? No, of coarse not, because you know better then that.

Not allowing the VM would not be about blocking out opposing positions, it instead should be about not condoning them. When you allow a play to be shown you condone the morality and the message of the play. The monologues morality is essentially contrary to the moral law and the dignity of the feminine genius.

I would be for a specialized class on the topic, in which students could read them to discuss them. But to engage in the play is not better then watching porno. It may be worse because it is porno in disguise.

Inculturalization is not about sinking down to the level of heathen culture, instead it about bringing the culture up, baptizing it.

Please do not let your dislike of the character Socrates blind you to this.
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Have you seen it?

I haven't, and can't therefore tell you how it compares to pornography. From what I've heard, it's not comparable to pornography. But that's all second- and third-hand information.

[JudgedByGod]

[quote]Have you seen it?

I haven't, and can't therefore tell you how it compares to pornography. From what I've heard, it's not comparable to pornography. But that's all second- and third-hand information.
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You haven't seen it yet you are in such support of it? This doesn't seem to make sense. I think if you saw or read parts of it, you would have a very different opinion. It describes heterosexual and homosexual fornication quite descriptively as well as masturbation. So descriptive, that I refuse to quote it on here. Before you continue to comment on how wonderful of a decision this was, I suggest you read parts of it (but I warn you that it is disgusting).

[amandaplus5]

What amazes me is that this topic is even in the debate section at all. How is the Vagina Monologues beneficial to students? It's bogus to say that it will "open up dialogue." Following that logic, shouldn't Catholic colleges then show movies like Brokeback Mountain? That would certainly open up dialogue.

You do not have to be emersed in the glorification of smut to be educated in the ways of the world and how to defend the faith against that(in fact, all you have to do is turn on the TV and you will get the "ways of the world" and more). This is why people go to Catholic colleges - so they can learn about their faith and the world without being subjected to the unnecessary things. Think about it: Will you be better off after subjecting yourself to the Vagina monologues? Why?

If Catholic colleges allow stuff like the Vagina Monologues, they cease to be different from the secular educational institutions. If you really have a burning desire to see stuff like that, don't go to a Catholic college.

[shortnun]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='Apr 7 2006, 11:31 AM']Edit: btw, this IS Notre Dame after all, so I am not surprised that they decided to go with it. I would have dropped dead from shock if they had shut it down
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It has been shut down by the adminstration in years past. Please reconsider snide remarks about schools that you deem to be be "not Catholic" enough.

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:05 PM']I haven't, and can't therefore tell you how it compares to pornography. From what I've heard, it's not comparable to pornography. But that's all second- and third-hand information.
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It is not pornography. I have seen the original version performed, as well as adaptations.

[quote name='amandaplus5' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:56 PM']What amazes me is that this topic is even in the debate section at all.  How is the Vagina Monologues beneficial to students?  It's bogus to say that it will "open up dialogue."  Following that logic, shouldn't Catholic colleges then show movies like Brokeback Mountain?  That would certainly open up dialogue.

You do not have to be emersed in the glorification of smut to be educated in the ways of the world and how to defend the faith against that(in fact, all you have to do is turn on the TV and you will get the "ways of the world" and more). This is why people go to Catholic colleges - so they can learn about their faith and the world without being subjected to the unnecessary things.  Think about it: Will you be better off after subjecting yourself to the Vagina monologues?  Why?

If Catholic colleges allow stuff like the Vagina Monologues, they cease to be different from the secular educational institutions.  If you really have a burning desire to see stuff like that, don't go to a Catholic college.
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I think it would be perfectly acceptable to show "Brokeback Mountain" at a Catholic college, followed by a forum for discussion. As a matter of fact, it was shown at my undergrad institution, and just this past week in a sexual ethics class at my graduate school (both are Catholic). It has allowed for dialogue.

I went to a Catholic college to learn about my faith and to get an education. I see those things as going hand in hand. And thankfully, the college I graduated from didn't have a sign out front that read "We promise to keep you in a bubble for four years." If it had, I would have run in the opposite direction. And yes, I consider myself having benefited from conversations I've had with men and women in light of seeing the Vagina Monologues.

Showing the VM alone does [b]not [/b]suddenly make a Catholic school a secular one. I have a burning desire to be educated and to know how that impacts my faith. So please, if you don't mind, I'll chose where I go to school and how it pertains to the living out of my faith and the building of the Kingdom of God.

[Jaime]

I'd be extremely curious to know how many folks who object so strongly have seen the play or read it.

[Era Might]

From the desk of Bishop John M. D'Arcy, of the Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend:

[quote]At this time of the year, it has been customary for many institutions of higher learning, including, regrettably, Catholic institutions, to present something called, The Vagina Monologues. Alas, even our beloved University of Notre Dame is presenting it again, as it has for the past several years, under the official sponsorship of at least two departments.

The bishop is the teacher within his diocese, bearing special responsibility before God to shed light on moral issues, especially when the souls of young people are involved; not his own light, but the light that comes from the Gospel, from the teachings of Christ and the church. To be sure that I have understood what is at stake here, and conscious of the importance of proper research at all times, but especially when dealing with an institution of higher learning, I have read and studied the text in question.

The Vagina Monologues is offensive to women; it is antithetical to Catholic teaching on the beautiful gift of human sexuality and also to the teachings of the church on the human body relative to its purpose and to its status as a temple of the Holy Spirit. The human body and the human person, in the tradition of the church, must never be seen as an object.

...

I urge Notre Dame to look at the contradiction here, especially in light of its long service to the human person. The consistency which one looks for, and so often finds at Notre Dame, is sorely missing in the decision to present this play.

...

This play violates the truth about women; the truth about sexuality; the truth about male and female, and the truth about the human body.

It is in opposition to the highest understanding of academic freedom. A Catholic university seeks truth. It is never afraid of truth, but it seeks it with respect for both reason and faith. Each gives light and guidance to the other. How has the light coming from faith, or indeed from right reason, been brought to bear on this decision?

[url="http://www.diocesefwsb.org/COMMUNICATIONS/monologues.htm"]http://www.diocesefwsb.org/COMMUNICATIONS/monologues.htm[/url][/quote]

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 7 2006, 01:05 PM']Have you seen it?

I haven't, and can't therefore tell you how it compares to pornography. From what I've heard, it's not comparable to pornography. But that's all second- and third-hand information.
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I have read the text. It is pronographic. To say that is not is either sad laziness, a lie with angenda, ignorance, or all four.

AND I expect way better from you to argue for the propagation of a play with out reading it. YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THAT.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:38 PM']I went to a Catholic college to learn about my faith and to get an education. I see those things as going hand in hand. And thankfully, the college I graduated from didn't have a sign out front that read "We promise to keep you in a bubble for four years." If it had, I would have run in the opposite direction. And yes, I consider myself having benefited from conversations I've had with men and women in light of seeing the Vagina Monologues.

[/quote]

Being in a bubble is not what we are talking about. Everytime you assert that you are committing a falacy. Opposing views are not bad, should not be with held by those who are forming themselves.

However, condoning propaganda of this type not presenting fairly opposing views. It is sanctioning them. YOU ARE SANCTIONING SIN.

A Catholic institution must be opened minded, present fairly other sides, but always maintain the transmission of the truth. None of these things happen in the VM.

[quote]Showing the VM alone does [b]not [/b]suddenly make a Catholic school a secular one. I have a burning desire to be educated and to know how that impacts my faith. So please, if you don't mind, I'll chose where I go to school and how it pertains to the living out of my faith and the building of the Kingdom of God.
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Showing the VM alone [b]does [/b]suddenly make a Catholic school an un-faithful one.

If you have benefitted from viewing the VM, it is not apperent in your view of them, because it is not faithful to the Magisterium, the Faith, or the Moral Law.

I have also benefited and benefited people who have viewed pronography, in that addiction has been over come. But this only happens when it first is admitted as evil.

Lastly, what you finish with is moral relitivism, which is a sliding scale into disbelief.

Once Again I am sure that are sincere, but sincerely wrong.

[Jaime]

[quote] I have read the text. It is pronographic. To say that is not is either saddness, a lie with angenda, ignorance, or all three.
[/quote]

I've seen the play with the writer performing. Honestly I can understand that the written version can come across as pornographic. If I had only read the play, I can see myself coming to the same conclusion But when I saw it performed, pornography was the furthest thing from my mind. There is a pathos generated by listening to it read by the writer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not endorsing the play or am I a fan.( I actually found it a bit boring.) I just didn't see it as pornographic. The message I got from watching it is that there have been a large amount of women who have been or are currently embarrassed, mortified, uncomfortable, ashamed, etc. about their bodies and specifically about the vagina.

Are there excerpts that laud sinful behavior. Yes absolutely. On that people have a legitimate gripe. However the intent of the piece is to shed light on the shame and to encourage dialogue. Is it designed to shock people into dialogue? Probably.. But in our "enlightened" age, I know of women who cannot even bring themselves to say the word vagina out loud for fear of embarrassment.