stopping abortions

[prose]

Haven't we seen this poll like 10 times in the last 2 weeks?

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='Tarcisius' date='Apr 12 2006, 10:05 AM']Prayer is good, and pray we must, but much evil exists in the world because people who were afraid to act said all we gotta do is pray.

"We are not, as Christians, called to stop abortions by force."

where are you getting this from???? As a Catholic you are bound to defend the innocent.

also adam, a clinic closing is definitly good, and it definitly is a result of prayer, but the doctor just moves onto another clinic...

if instead they were killing 8yos at these clinics, would the correct Catholic response be to wait till it closes if ever, or to go and stop them today.

how could you tell the children alive today because paul hill stopped there murder that he should of not saved them and instead prayed while they were slaughtered
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I'm sorry but maybe you can show in the new testament especially in acts and the epistles where christians used violent force to stop injustice. I can't remember any. Oh yeah I think it is because Jesus told Peter "you live by the sword, you die by the sword". Afterall Peter was defending an innocent life. Prayer which is lead by the Spirit is more powerful than any weapon or act of violence man can use. Otherwise Jesus would of said to use a catapult to move the mountain into the sea instead of faith.

It is also true that violence brings about retaliation and revenge; therefore, If we were to get violent with these abortionists you would see a push for more choice and more baby killing like never before. Saving one life would actually result in taking many more. Also tighter restrictions would be put on prayer groups and marches because of this, making it even harder to reach these mothers. And then what mother would want to listen to people who are trying to kill her.

Please look at the whole picture before you ramble on about going against what Jesus has taught.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='prose' date='Apr 12 2006, 11:32 AM']Haven't we seen this poll like 10 times in the last 2 weeks?
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exactly what i was thinking

[Tarcisius]

[quote]I'm sorry but maybe you can show in the new testament especially in acts and the epistles where christians used violent force to stop injustice. I can't remember any. Oh yeah I think it is because Jesus told Peter "you live by the sword, you die by the sword". Afterall Peter was defending an innocent life. Prayer which is lead by the Spirit is more powerful than any weapon or act of violence man can use. Otherwise Jesus would of said to use a catapult to move the mountain into the sea instead of faith.

Please look at the whole picture before you ramble on about going against what Jesus has taught.[/quote]

Are you saying it would be wrong to shoot a man that was about to stab my son?
I dont think any Priest would think so.

Why should we not place the same value on the innocent life of the unborn as our own children.

[quote]It is also true that violence brings about retaliation and revenge; therefore, If we were to get violent with these abortionists you would see a push for more choice and more baby killing like never before. Saving one life would actually result in taking many more. Also tighter restrictions would be put on prayer groups and marches because of this, making it even harder to reach these mothers. [/quote]

This is a bit farfetched I think. "im gonna go get an abortion because that guy shot a doctor in kentucky" that doest seem very likely to me. More likely to me might be "man those Catholics are really acting like they believe fetuses are people, maybe i should think about this more seriously." although, none of this matters as the reaction of others is not a good enough reason to do the wrong thing.

If Catholics started shooting abortion doctors at a high rate
1) doctors would become to expensive to insure
2)doctors would be afraid to become abortionists
3) innocent lives would be saved

[quote]And then what mother would want to listen to people who are trying to kill her.[/quote]

I am not advocating the killing of the mothers, that would be rediculous.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Tarcisius' date='Apr 12 2006, 08:20 PM']I am not advocating the killing of the mothers, that would be rediculous.
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I'm not advocating anything at this point, but why not? If it would be okay to whack the doc's why not the mom's? They are the one's who want the abortion in the first place... If mom's won't listen to people who are trying to kill them, why would the doc's listen?

[dairygirl4u2c]

I agree maybe declaring war is only going to cause more harm than good. You may have that point. But ultimately you have not made your point that the war is wrong based on Jesus or the bible.
Also, this is a hypothetical situation, since you obviously forgot.

[quote]I'm sorry but maybe you can show in the new testament especially in acts and the epistles where christians used violent force to stop injustice. I can't remember any. Oh yeah I think it is because Jesus told Peter "you live by the sword, you die by the sword". Afterall Peter was defending an innocent life. Prayer which is lead by the Spirit is more powerful than any weapon or act of violence man can use. Otherwise Jesus would of said to use a catapult to move the mountain into the sea instead of faith. [/quote]

Also please explain how declaring such a war as essentially described is different than a just war.
What about self defense which seems to be taught as okay when Jesus says to turn the other cheek.
What about the fact that it's morally licit to execute some criminals in the CC.
What about
[quote]Are you saying it would be wrong to shoot a man that was about to stab my son?
I dont think any Priest would think so.[/quote]

Maybe Catholic theology is wrong. Or maybe you're wrong. Please respond to each of those points. Your rationales are absurd.

[prose]

[quote]What about self defense which seems to be taught as okay when Jesus says to turn the other cheek. [/quote]

How is that self-defense?

[Tarcisius]

[quote]I'm not advocating anything at this point, but why not? If it would be okay to whack the doc's why not the mom's? They are the one's who want the abortion in the first place... If mom's won't listen to people who are trying to kill them, why would the doc's listen?
[/quote]

are you being serious????? shooting the doctors is not about revenge or punishment, it is solely about stopping the murder of a child. Shooting the mother would obviously kill said child....

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]What about self defense which seems to be taught as okay when Jesus says to turn the other cheek.

How is that self-defense?[/quote]

I didn't make myself clear. Self defense is considered okay by the CC. Yet Jesus said turn the other cheek. Obviously either one is wrong or neither is wrong and there's a way to reconcile them. Most likely the latter.

fyi.. I know I wasn't clear, but if you look at the flow of my ideas, you'll see my shorthand lack of explanation flows with demonstrating something considered okay by the CC as "opposed" to something considered wrong by the bible.

[stbernardLT]

I'm sorry but until I hear the church say that our pro-life needs to take on violence I will not advocate it. I can tell you looking at crucifix to day on Good Friday I wonder WWJD. I can't imagine him camped in out in a vacant building with a sniper rifle about to unload rounds on some doctors. Or maybe we should just represent Him in certain instances. Jesus has never advocated violence, NEVER.

YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE CATHECISM IS FLAWED.
Shooting these doctors in no way falls under the self-defense theory, or even the just war theory. At the ed of the discussion on the fifth commandment in the Cathecism the church says that we must seek a better way if there is a more peaceful way. Think about it we all unload on the doctors end up with life in prison and who is left to lead the push. Sort term solution (maybe) long term solution definitly not. This isn't about one secluded situation of self defense, this is about a problem that stretches around the world and for years to come, what we do now will greatly effect what is done later. Killing doctor will not change laws it will only force the government to put harsher ones on Pro-Lifers. If you don't think the pro-choice group will retaliate, you're in denial.

As far as the babies, yes it is horribly sad that their lives are being taken and I agree something needs to be done. But I know that going this route might save a few babies now but we will lose more ground and more babies will die in the long run. Wars are fought on strategy not blind emotion.

Oh yeah it doesn't take much for a mother to go to another clinic if her doctors been killed.

And killing the mother, wouldn't you be killing the baby also.(as I said, not well thought out.)

[Tarcisius]

I am not arguing a self defense theory at all. This is much more important, this is about defense of the innocent who can not defend themselves. You are morally bound as a Catholic to help them.

[quote]Think about it we all unload on the doctors end up with life in prison and who is left to lead the push.[/quote]

The millions of other Catholics not in jail... and your assuming everyone would end up in jail when most homicides are resolved, also hey, life in prison, plenty of time for that prayer then huh.

[quote]it will only force the government to put harsher ones on Pro-Lifers. If you don't think the pro-choice group will retaliate, you're in denial.[/quote]

this is of no relevance, the gov is constantly increasing laws against pro-lifers anyway, pro-choice groups already do everything they can. and besides all that, your argument is akin to saying people shouldnt have helped those being oppresesd in Nazi Germany because the Nazis would get angry, so what.

[quote]As far as the babies, yes it is horribly sad that their lives are being taken[/quote]

they are not being taken, they are being murdered by the thousands and eternally seperated from Christ and possibly ending up in Hell.

[quote]Oh yeah it doesn't take much for a mother to go to another clinic if her doctors been killed. [/quote]

some dont , i guess your right though, just a few babies saved from slaughter and given the chance at the Beautific Vision, eh

Get down to what your really feeling kids, you dont want to believe that I am right because your scared of the TRUTH.

Why not trust in the Lords Providence and do something that is right, stop that murder today, and just see how things take care of themselves.


ps. I am not advocating the breaking of any US laws, this is a hypothetical disucussion.

[stbernardLT]

I can't beleive your actually saying these babies might end up in hell or seperated from God eternally. God can have mercy on sinners but not on those who are innnocent. You my friend are very misled on the mercy God. And what is even more bizarre is that you have the nerve to say babies are going to hell on Good Friday of all days. I'm through with this messed up thread.

[avemaria40]

Violence is wrong and begets more violence. Once cannot put fire out with fire but with water. Prayer, peaceful protesting (which is guaranteed by the Constitution, take advantage of your rights as an American), helping these mothers (sidewalk counseling, volunteering in pregnancy centers, etc.) and voting for prolife candidates are what's going to get rid of abortion. Also, educating the young on chastity and abstinence with a program that actually works, and educating people on abortion can help with getting rid of abortion. People will listen to Truth if you respect them and can show yourself as a respectable, rational person. It works better than yelling at them and killing them and in the long run it saves more babies and more moms and the prochoice movement loses ground.

Edited April 16, 2006 by avemaria40

[Tarcisius]

[quote]I can't beleive your actually saying these babies might end up in hell or seperated from God eternally. God can have mercy on sinners but not on those who are innnocent. You my friend are very misled on the mercy God. And what is even more bizarre is that you have the nerve to say babies are going to hell on Good Friday of all days. I'm through with this messed up thread.
[/quote]

I hope they do go to Heaven, but...... I wonder why Satan would be sending legions of millions to Heaven......

[MichaelFilo]

Lol... babies go to heaven; where is thy sting now, original sin?

In reality, to use deadly force to save life is only appropriate in a situation when one is protecting another. This is always direct... and never neccessary in the abortion issue. However, force maybe neccessary to stop the abortion, and this is perfectly fine, or else we may not protect a retarded man if he is attacked and leave him to his own defenses. No, we must protect children born and unborn, but in the case of abortion, this is hardly a case where lethal force is neccesary.. Operation Rescue in Orlando Florida (or that area) is a wonderful example of using non-lethal force tos ave the unborn.

Anyone who thinks babies are going to heaven is not only a heretic, but they openly teach false doctrine to the Faithful. This is a most troublesome thing.

God bless,
Mikey

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' post='954254' date='Apr 19 2006, 03:56 PM']
Lol... babies go to heaven; where is thy sting now, original sin?

In reality, to use deadly force to save life is only appropriate in a situation when one is protecting another. This is always direct... and never neccessary in the abortion issue. However, force maybe neccessary to stop the abortion, and this is perfectly fine, or else we may not protect a retarded man if he is attacked and leave him to his own defenses. No, we must protect children born and unborn, but in the case of abortion, this is hardly a case where lethal force is neccesary.. Operation Rescue in Orlando Florida (or that area) is a wonderful example of using non-lethal force tos ave the unborn.

Anyone who thinks babies are going to heaven is not only a heretic, but they openly teach false doctrine to the Faithful. This is a most troublesome thing.

God bless,
Mikey
[/quote]

Hey Mikey please read the article in the CCC about the necessity of baptism before you condemn infants. God is not bound by His sacraments, and the church says we must trust in the MERCY of Christ and beleive that Jesus meant what he said we he said"Let them come to me". This is the CCC talking not me. Leave it to holier than thou Rad-Trads to call out heresy falsely. This is happening way too much on these boards lately.

[MichaelFilo]

Right, to hell with the councils, give me the CCC.

Thanks. I'm hardly holier than you, or the Church, but watch what you say, lest you tred falsely, the CCC is hardly an authoratative document on it's own accord, it's authority is derived from the truths contained in it; whilst the councils of Lyons II and Florence were led by the Holy Spirit and derive their authority from themselves, not neccessatating any former decree to be held as Truth.

God bless,
Mikey

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' post='954299' date='Apr 19 2006, 04:39 PM']
Right, to hell with the councils, give me the CCC.

Thanks. I'm hardly holier than you, or the Church, but watch what you say, lest you tred falsely, the CCC is hardly an authoratative document on it's own accord, it's authority is derived from the truths contained in it; whilst the councils of Lyons II and Florence were led by the Holy Spirit and derive their authority from themselves, not neccessatating any former decree to be held as Truth.

God bless,
Mikey
[/quote]

These councils were not dealing with wide spread abortion like we are now, and so just maybe the church has had to revisit this issue (the church can change certain views). If the church felt it necessary to address, don't you think it would expect us to accept the guidance. I don't know maybe that part of the catechism was just a big prank. Maybe you could go through the CCC and tell what is accurate and what isn't. It would be a good learning experience for all of us.

P.S. The Church Militiant title you hold is very misleading. It seems like you are fighting against anything the church has written ummm.....since Vatican II.

[MichaelFilo]

Really? Against everything since Vatican II? I'm appauled, since, well, Vatican II, as far as I can tell was a valid council, under a valid pope. Religious Freedom? Sounds good. Novus Ordo? Sounds good. Eucemenism(sp?). Sounds good too. None of it sounds great however.

If you think the Church can revist her doctrines than I would like to question, sir, what exactly it is that the Church is unchanging? Because dammit, that makes no sense, revisiting things the Church has spoken on. If the Church should contradict herself, then the gates of hell have prevailed, and anyone on Phatmass, except possibly EENS, understands that. (I mean that kindly EENS, but you don't understand that you cannot burn the Church down and exalt her, she must be cleaned out of the modernism, but you ought not go saying less than accurate things about the current pontiff). So, I must ask, are you suggesting the Church revist her teachings? She will say the same thing again and again, the real crime of abortion isn't that the children are removed from this world, it is that they are barred from the Beatfic Vision of the next. When that is realized, non-lethal force becomes not only an option, it may at times become a neccessity. This many priests nuns and monks knew when they engaged in operation rescue.

God bless,
Mikey

[stbernardLT]

If you think that the church is addressing issues and responding to certain issues the same way it did say 1,000 yrs ago, you need to study church history. Too say that if the church takes a different stand (not really different in this case just more interpretive) on an issue, the gates of hell have prevailed is very ignorant. If the church never changes its views, then how do you explain a church going from executing people left and right to almost outright condemning the death penalty. With age comes wisdom and experience. The church has a lot of this and the Holy Spirit continues to guide it in the right direction, otherwise the church(the people who make it up) would be perfect instead of striving for perfection.

If you are stating that the CCC is wrong, say it.

You might need to consider anger management, or just cool down.