Liturgical Abuse

[Resurrexi]

I have, what about you?

[son_of_angels]

Not sure if this is an abuse, but the priest at the indult I attend in Michigan obstinately refuses to chant the epistle, and so reads it, even when incense and chant are used.

It just doesn't make sense.

Also not sure if this an abuse, since it was not proactively forbidden in the publication of the new edition of the Tridentine Missal, but at the Fraternity masses I attend, they still say the Confiteor before the Communion rite.

[MilesChristi]

Yes, I've noticed occasional abuses but nothing major. The servers recite the Confiteor right before Communion although that is not prescribed in the 1962 missal. One of the priests does not use his biretta.

That's all I've noticed....needless to say, I'm very happy with the state of my parish.

[Resurrexi]

I dont have a second confetior

[qfnol31]

If the music isn't an abuse...it should be.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i think the servers might reciet the 2nd confietor, but im not close enough so i can't here. im really not sure.

sometimes when the gospel is really long the deacon reads it in english.

[dspen2005]

oh my... u mean the TLM has abuses too???? and to think the way some of these trads speak, it is as if the TLM is never abused....

[Cam42]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Apr 16 2006, 05:44 PM']oh my... u mean the TLM has abuses too????  and to think the way some of these trads speak, it is as if the TLM is never abused....
[right][snapback]949336[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

You just shot a hole in their whole argument.....HOW DARE YOU!!!????

That makes my life a lot easier, thanks for the Easter gift!!!!! :

(as if I didn't know that already)

[son_of_angels]

O get off it!

If the TLM didn't have "abuses" though I would call them, like the Novus Ordo, simply "misinterpretations" then it would be preformed like and by robots, because no one's perfect. Most of the support for the TLM, including my own, is for the spirituality and orthodoxy it supports, not for some fallen notion of perfection. True, it's an opening of heaven to Earth, but only to the gate, and only a faith-perceived participation therein. Otherwise we are poor sinners standing around so awesome a mystery.

I'll take the "trad" name thank you, as an avid supporter of the Tridentine Mass, and you can leave your disparaging comments beside my St. Pius X portrait. I'll look over them after the Leonine prayers.

[qfnol31]

I think the Novus Ordo gives the impression that it lends itself to abuses more than the Tridentine Mass.

I personally accept that it's hard to have Mass without abuses, but now adays most of the Tridentine Masses do not...for if someone goes to that much trouble for the Mass, why would he ruin it with abuses when the Novus Ordo (in my opinion) is easier, especially with some of the people who attend?

[goldenchild17]

I'm not really sure if my parish has abuses or not. I have noticed some small things that I am checking into, but for the most part I am just happy to get out of the mess I was in before I went to the Latin Mass. But I have extreme doubts of another nature about the Indult right now and will likely switch to another nearby parish as soon as I can.

Edited April 17, 2006 by goldenchild17

[Cam42]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Apr 16 2006, 11:15 PM']O get off it!

If the TLM didn't have "abuses" though I would call them, like the Novus Ordo, simply "misinterpretations" then it would be preformed like and by robots, because no one's perfect.  Most of the support for the TLM, including my own, is for the spirituality and orthodoxy it supports, not for some fallen notion of perfection.  True, it's an opening of heaven to Earth, but only to the gate, and only a faith-perceived participation therein. Otherwise we are poor sinners standing around so awesome a mystery.

I'll take the "trad" name thank you, as an avid supporter of the Tridentine Mass, and you can leave your disparaging comments beside my St. Pius X portrait.  I'll look over them after the Leonine prayers.
[right][snapback]949989[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Now apply that to the Missa Normativa and you are on the right track.

"If the [i]Missa Normativa[/i] didn't have "abuses" though I would call them, like the [i]TLM,[/i] simply "misinterpretations" then it would be preformed like and by robots, because no one's perfect. Most of the support for the [i]Missa Normativa,[/i] including my own, is for the spirituality and orthodoxy it supports, not for some fallen notion of perfection. True, it's an opening of heaven to Earth, but only to the gate, and only a faith-perceived participation therein. Otherwise we are poor sinners standing around so awesome a mystery."

It works just as seamlessly. That is why the Mass is the Mass, whether it be the Missa Normativa or the TLM.

[dspen2005]

BOOYAH!!!!!!! u getem CAM!!!!!

u ROCK, yo!!!

[MichaelFilo]

While I disagree with cam, it's only because I disagree with the statement that Cam made it on. Anywho, to be human is to err, or something.

No, there are no abuses, in the sense that someone is out to abuse it. We have two good priests, and parishoners who'd shoot a priest if he played with the Mass (in fact, one time a man got up in the middle of the homily and yield at a visiting modernist priest; not neccessarily the most humble way to do it, but I sure would say, it's certainly helps to keep the flock aware of shepards out to take our faith and turn it into another one of the products of this age, which too shall pass).

God bless,
Mikey

[Cam42]

[quote name='dspen2005' post='951364' date='Apr 17 2006, 08:23 PM']
BOOYAH!!!!!!! u getem CAM!!!!!

u ROCK, yo!!!
[/quote]

Anytime.....it is simply stating obvious.....

[Aloysius]

I'm sorry, but if you can't notice a fundamental difference between the abuse of reciting two confiteors and abuses like ad-libbing and modifying the words of the eucharistic prayer and over-using eucharistic ministers then you're not thinking too deeply.

The abuses here listed have been nothing but misplaced traditional catholic attempts at piety. Abuses that could be listed that occur in the current missa normativa are generally novelties and ad-libs. There is a huge difference there.

Niether should happen. But excuse me for being more upset at an over-use of extraordinary ministers of holy communion or the ad-libbing of parts of the mass than at reciting two confiteors.

[son_of_angels]

[quote name='Cam42' post='952975' date='Apr 18 2006, 07:16 PM']
Anytime.....it is simply stating obvious.....
[/quote]


I'm sorry, what? Did you just echo me, because what I said applies to both Masses, not excluding one or the other.... Ah well, they say that imitation is the best form of flattery.

[Cam42]

[quote name='son_of_angels' post='953154' date='Apr 18 2006, 10:35 PM']
I'm sorry, what? Did you just echo me, because what I said applies to both Masses, not excluding one or the other.... Ah well, they say that imitation is the best form of flattery.
[/quote]

Whatever......you need to let the scales fall off your eyes. It is only after I reverse your position that you make this clarification?

Gee whiz.....

[quote name='Aloysius' date=' Yesterday, 09:37 PM']I'm sorry, but if you can't notice a fundamental difference between the abuse of reciting two confiteors and abuses like ad-libbing and modifying the words of the eucharistic prayer and over-using eucharistic ministers then you're not thinking too deeply.

The abuses here listed have been nothing but misplaced traditional catholic attempts at piety. Abuses that could be listed that occur in the current missa normativa are generally novelties and ad-libs. There is a huge difference there.

Niether should happen. But excuse me for being more upset at an over-use of extraordinary ministers of holy communion or the ad-libbing of parts of the mass than at reciting two confiteors.[/quote]

There is no fundamental difference Al. Abuse is abuse is abuse. If one does not follow the rubrics, then one makes the Mass illicit. This is just as true for the Tridentine as it is for the Missa Normativa. Even the indult mentality is subject to Sacrosanctum Concilium 22.

[quote]22. 1. Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.

2. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established.

3. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.[/quote]

How can I say this? Because when Sacrosanctum Concilium was promulgated on 4 Dec 1963, the Church was still celebrating the Tridentine Mass. So, what does subparagraph 3 state? This would apply just with just as much fervor as it does to the Missa Normativa.

[Aloysius]

There are different degrees of abuses.

Abuses described in this thread are only wrong because they technically violate the rubrics.

Many abuses described regarding the Missa Normativa are wrong because they violate the rubrics [i]and[/i] because they are novelties inconsistent with Catholic teaching and tradition.

There is a large degree of difference between retaining the second confiteor even though it was removed from the mass in the 50s and introducing novelties.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='953748' date='Apr 19 2006, 09:05 AM']
There are different degrees of abuses.

Abuses described in this thread are only wrong because they technically violate the rubrics.

Many abuses described regarding the Missa Normativa are wrong because they violate the rubrics [i]and[/i] because they are novelties inconsistent with Catholic teaching and tradition.

There is a large degree of difference between retaining the second confiteor even though it was removed from the mass in the 50s and introducing novelties.
[/quote]

So we agree....abuse is abuse is abuse. There is no such thing as technically violating the rubrics; either one does or one does not.

If something violates the rubrics, then it on some level departs from Sacred Tradition. How? Because liturgical law is subject to Tradition. If one departs from the approved text of 1962, then one is just as guilty of breaking liturgical law as one who celebrates Mass in a clown suit.