Liturgical Abuse

[OLAM Dad]

I don't know whey we continue to debate which rite is more prone to abuse. Anybody, even those with scales over their eyes, know the answer and in a moment of candor will admit such.

The real issue is that some have a problem with others simply because they attend a TLM. The attacks are not against the TLM itself, rather they are ad hominem attacks against its attendees.

This thread is just one case in point. It went from a serious discussion regarding rubrics at the TLM to this

[quote]and to think the way some of these trads speak, it is as if the TLM is never abused....
[/quote]

and this,

[quote]You just shot a hole in their whole argument.....HOW DARE YOU!!!????

That makes my life a lot easier, thanks for the Easter gift!!!!! P.gif [/quote]

and downhill from there.

The original poster specifically asked for only those who could stay on topic to post.

If you guys just want to insult and belittle people why don't you go to the democratic underground or something.

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' post='951369' date='Apr 17 2006, 07:26 PM']
While I disagree with cam, it's only because I disagree with the statement that Cam made it on. Anywho, to be human is to err, or something.

No, there are no abuses, in the sense that someone is out to abuse it. We have two good priests, and parishoners who'd shoot a priest if he played with the Mass (in fact, one time a man got up in the middle of the homily and yield at a visiting modernist priest; not neccessarily the most humble way to do it, but I sure would say, it's certainly helps to keep the flock aware of shepards out to take our faith and turn it into another one of the products of this age, which too shall pass).

God bless,
Mikey
[/quote]

The fact that one of your parishioners got up and yelled at a priest during mass, sounds very,very unhealthy. I could never imagine someone doing this. And the crazy thing is that this guy was yelling at the priest about liturgical abuse, that's the pot calling the kettle black. But then I know a lot of traditionalists who think approaching a situation this way would be appropriate. Stuff like this makes me sick, and makes traditionals look bad.

[qfnol31]

If a Mass becomes to where it's not a Mass...walk out.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' post='953824' date='Apr 19 2006, 09:34 AM']
The real issue is that some have a problem with others simply because they attend a TLM. The attacks are not against the TLM itself, rather they are ad hominem attacks against its attendees.
If you guys just want to insult and belittle people why don't you go to the democratic underground or something.
[/quote]
I for one am tired of people like EENS and StMore coming in here, telling us that the TLM is "superior" to the "inferior" NO mass or people like M. Filio telling us that people who go to the TLM are holier than people who attend Novus Ordo. I used to be sympathetic to the sspx to a degree. But now, after seeing how they act, there is no way on God's green earth that I feel an ounce of sympathy for them.
[quote name='OLAM Dad' post='953824' date='Apr 19 2006, 09:34 AM']
I don't know whey we continue to debate which rite is more prone to abuse. Anybody, even those with scales over their eyes, know the answer and in a moment of candor will admit such.
[/quote]
Case in point
[quote name='OLAM Dad' post='953824' date='Apr 19 2006, 09:34 AM']
The original poster specifically asked for only those who could stay on topic to post.
[/quote]
Please, as if EENS and St.ThomasMore stay on topic. They hijack more threads than the Creepy Aliens

[MichaelFilo]

Note my hesitance as to the uncharitable nature of the act; but do not be fooled, while we are to be obedient to our superiors we are in no way enslaved to error. St. Athenasius (sp?) is a wonderful example, he knew his superiors, and he loved them, but he certainly would not bow down to injustice and error. It was hardly correct to yell at him during the Mass, but it ought to be noted, at least someone knows enough to speak up. The TLM crowd is almost unmistakably the better crowd at this.

And as for Cam, yes an abuse is an abuse is an abuse, but to say that there is no degree of abuse then you misunderstand the nature of what an abuse is. Certainly, keeping to an older version of the Mass is hardly as reproachable as some new innovation. To note, my priest (from a good old suburban church) told me that another priest (from another different good ol' suburban church, which is but 2 minutes away from me walking) was wrong to bring up the children around teh altar for whatever the special occasion was, but that since it was done earlier, it was hardly as wrong as denying me communion for kneeling. Both are abuses, but which is worse? You see, the relaity is, there are degrees, and intent helps to create the sense of degrees. i would not hold a priest to as much responsability for saying the prayer to St. Michael before he leaves as I would to the priest who sings happy birthday after the petition. And certainly, I do not hold that same priest to as much error for saying the Hail Mary at the end of the petitions (as a final petition) even though it is an added prayer because it is not a break intended to severe the Mass and it may not even dawn on him it is a whole other prayer, simply another request, but in fact it is another prayer. I do not hold that to as much regard as I would denying communion to the kneeling. The reality is, some abuses are worse than others, but they are all indeed abuses and need fixing, but to judge the merit of something, you must recognize the degree of it's faults.

God bless,
Mikey

[qfnol31]

If you hold all abuses as equal, then all would nullify the "Mass," such as changing the words of Consecration does.

[quote] [...] abuse is abuse is abuse. There is no such thing as technically violating the rubrics; either one does or one does not.[/quote]

Though not the same, this sounds similar to "a sin is a sin is a sin." However, just as not all sins are of the same degree and in the same respect - they have different levels of significance and culpability - the same can be said about abuses during the Mass. An abuse of one kind can not be said to equal another abuse of a completely different kind.

Lastly, Mikey, do you really think that the Priest saying the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel is an abuse? I do think it was requested by Pope Leo after a vision...

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

The old priests tell me what TLM was the norm, that abuses were common.

Now those who practice it, are so devout and serious, that they will do anything to not abuse, etc.

It seems naive to claim that TLMs by necessity eliminate abuse.

The problem is clearly those who do liturgies with agendas.

BTW, whats the difference between a liturgist and a terrorist...



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You can negotiate with a terrorist...

[qfnol31]

[quote]The old priests tell me what TLM was the norm, that abuses were common.[/quote]

Giving a Mass with more freedom might not have been a good idea at that time...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

actually, there are some abuses at the TLM becausae of liberalism. some of th e priests mess with the rubrics etc. allowing english into the mass.

[dspen2005]

u say the same for the NO... so, as CAm said, abuse is abuse is abuse.... nothing inherent in the Mass itself, then... right?

[qfnol31]

But an abuse isn't necessarily the same as other abuses.

Abuses are not all equal.

Also, why is this all about the Novus Ordo? This wasn't a thread to bring up Novus Ordo versus Tridentine Mass...but even people who don't like such discussions are willing to take anything on the Tridentine Mass in such a direction.

I'm now going to say to you that anything about the Novus Ordo here is probably off topic, which you wouldn't allow in any other thread except that of a person with whom you are used to disagreeing.

[Mrvoll]

[quote name='qfnol31' post='950300' date='Apr 17 2006, 12:19 AM']
I think the Novus Ordo gives the impression that it lends itself to abuses more than the Tridentine Mass.

[/quote]

Your right there.


I haven't noticed any abuses but they did not say the second confesior (I have a 1957 St. Joseph Missal) and the people responded with the servers.