How confident is the church

[infinitelord1]

Is the church 100% in its belief that purgatory currently exists?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Yes.

"Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven" Rev. 21:27

[dspen2005]

ABSOLUTELY!!!!

[Myles Domini]

Infinitelord you may want to purchase a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church or the Compendium of the Catechism from whence this extract comes:

[quote][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM"]III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory[/url]

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609
[/quote]

[ironmonk]

Check out [url="http://www.IanPaisley.net"]http://www.IanPaisley.net[/url]

Catechism & bible verses... along with a rebut of one of Ian's articles in ref to purgatory.

[Resurrexi]

Of course the chuch is absolutely sure that purgatory currently exists.

[Guest JeffCR07]

confident enough to view it as necessary for someone to believe if he or she wants to take the name "Catholic" :

[Eutychus]

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality of LIMBO.

Then one day.....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality of 12 hour fasting before Communion.

Then one day....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality that Muslims were pagans bound for hell.

Then one day....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality that the Latin Mass was eternal.

Then one day...

As dedicated Catholics, we were TOLD that PURGETORY was forever, real and would NEVER be changed.

Then one day, it went from WORSE punishement than hell, to merely a place of seperation from God.

Then one day....

[blovedwolfofgod]

Eutychus,
There is a little bit of a difference between dogma and theories such as limbo, or what the little details of purgatory are. The Latin Mass is still valid... Where was the Muslim thing? Was it in one of the infallible documents or was it a traditionalist interpretation of Trent? And then there is also the difference between the matter of dogma and practice, Tradition and tradition... like the 12 hour fast being a matter of tradition, not a matter of faith and dogma.

And I dont know if anyone else said hi to ya, so hello!

Edited May 9, 2006 by blovedwolfofgod

[Myles Domini]

Who taught you that purgatory was worse than Hell?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='970968' date='May 4 2006, 10:22 AM']
Is the church 100% in its belief that purgatory currently exists?
[/quote]
its dogma and thus absolutely certain.

why do you ask?

[Eutychus]

[quote]Who taught you that purgatory was worse than Hell? [/quote]

Gee, I dunno.....

Maybe my nuns? And few guys that you may have heard of in passing. And they seemed have authority that even my padre, try as he might, didn't quite bring to bear.

[quote][b][u]St. Cyril of Alexandria. He states that "it would be preferable to suffer all the torments of earth until judgment day rather than to pass one day in purgatory."And St. Thomas Aquinas held that the least pain in purgatory was greater than the worst that could be experienced in this life.[/u][/b][/quote]

But then, what do those guys know, they are not in the Magisterium THIS YEAR, now are they??

Smooch.

Edited May 10, 2006 by Eutychus

[Guest Rick777]

"it would be preferable to suffer all the torments of earth until judgment day rather than to pass one day in purgatory.' - St. Cyril of Alexandria

Earth, not hell buddy.....

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='976726' date='May 9 2006, 07:22 PM']
Gee, I dunno.....

Maybe my nuns? And few guys that you may have heard of in passing....
But then, what do those guys know, they are not in the Magisterium THIS YEAR, now are they??

Smooch.
[/quote]
Note however that these quotes are talking about the pains of life, not hell. Hell is eternal separation from God, thus the greatest possible punishment.

No one is denying that purgatory will be painful. And those quotes illuminate the fact that it will probably be much more painful than anything we have experienced in our lives. However, this pain is put to good use, as it cleans us up so that we may go to heaven.

[Eutychus]

[quote] Hell is eternal separation from God, thus the greatest possible punishment.[/quote]

Goodness then.

Does that mean ALL those paintings in Catholic churches I saw on my THREE trips on the relic tours including that tourist trap on the Tiber were LYING then?

Sheesh. I need new lenses on my Nikon, I honestly could have SWORN that those were EVIL TORMENTS including fire and torture that were depicted and used to shake down the pew classes for suitable emoluents to build those massive palaces I spent so much time in.

You mean that Dante was lying?

And all those MASTERS who were commisioned by the Popes and Bishops were just "carried away with active imaginations?"

[url="http://www.sufferingsouls.com/purgatory-pergatory-purgetory.jpg"]http://www.sufferingsouls.com/purgatory-pe...y-purgetory.jpg[/url]

[img]http://www.marys-touch.com/truth/purgatory.JPG[/img]

[Guest Rick777]

Nice pic!

[Laudate_Dominum]

The primary pain is a pain of soul, not the pain of sense. The reason the suffering of purgatory is greater is because a person's conscience is illuminated and they've tasted of God and actually realize the horror of sin and its effects in light of the absolute, indescribable goodness, holiness and love of God. This realization, I suppose, causes an agony that we cannot appreciate yet. Also having a certain sense of what the joys of heaven and God's presence are like and yet still being deprived of it because of sin. And the strangest thing about purgatory is that the suffering soul wills this to be so out of sorrow and compunction. There is a full longing to be conformed to Christ so that one might see the Father.
This is how I see it. We do know a good bit about purgatory from revelation, but there is still much that is mysterious about it and thus there is room for speculation. This is why different saints might describe it in different ways.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='976819' date='May 9 2006, 08:06 PM']
Goodness then.

Does that mean ALL those paintings in Catholic churches I saw on my THREE trips on the relic tours including that tourist trap on the Tiber were LYING then?

Sheesh. I need new lenses on my Nikon, I honestly could have SWORN that those were EVIL TORMENTS including fire and torture that were depicted and used to shake down the pew classes for suitable emoluents to build those massive palaces I spent so much time in.

You mean that Dante was lying?

And all those MASTERS who were commisioned by the Popes and Bishops were just "carried away with active imaginations?"

[url="http://www.sufferingsouls.com/purgatory-pergatory-purgetory.jpg"]http://www.sufferingsouls.com/purgatory-pe...y-purgetory.jpg[/url]

[img]http://www.marys-touch.com/truth/purgatory.JPG[/img]
[/quote]
Hell is eternal separation from God, which does include the everlasting fires of hell, which are torment and pain. Those who go to hell choose it, and they choose eternal suffering at the hands of satan.

Purgatory is also pain and suffering, but because of the purifying fires which clean our souls for heaven.

[ironmonk]

Eutychus,
It seems that you might be misunderstanding individual's opinions for Church teachings.

[quote]Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality of LIMBO.[/quote]

Limbo was a fact at one time, that was the place of souls who had to wait for Christ to die and enter Heaven before they could.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm[/url]

Now, it's questionable if there is a need for limbo... We do not know for fact what happens to unbaptized babies when they die... we trust in God's mercy, but they could be in limbo.

[quote]Then one day.....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality of 12 hour fasting before Communion.[/quote]

Disciplines change... faith and morals do not. Disciplines are practices, 12 hour fasting or one hour fasting are practices/disciplines. The time is ment for reflextion and examination of conscience.

[quote]Then one day....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality that Muslims were pagans bound for hell.[/quote]

The Catholic Church never taught that Muslims were bound for hell.

[b]Romans 2:12 [/b]
All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
[b]13 [/b] For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
[b]14 [/b] For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
[b]15 [/b] They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
[b]16 [/b] on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.


[quote]Then one day....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality that the Latin Mass was eternal.[/quote]

This was not a teaching. The Mass has changed since the first one on the night of the last supper... and can change. In St. Matt. 16:18-19 Christ gives the authority to bind and loose to the office of Peter.


[quote]Then one day...

As dedicated Catholics, we were TOLD that PURGETORY was forever, real and would NEVER be changed.[/quote]

Purgatory was never taught that it was forever.

Purgatory from the Catechism, The Official Teaching of the Catholic Church:

The name "Purgatory" was given to something that was taught before Christ came to the world.... The Catholic Church just gave a name to something that existed before the time of Christ & the Apostles.


[b]III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory[/b]

[b]1030 [/b]
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.


[b]1031 [/b]
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607


As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608


[b]1032 [/b]
This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:


Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611


607: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608: St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609: 2 Macc 12:46.
611: St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.


In Scripture....
1 Peter 1:6
In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials,
7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.


Isaiah 6:5
Then I said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar.
7 He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."


Matt 12:32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.


Rev 20:13

The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.
Death and Hades (not the pool of fire) gave up their dead and they were judged according to their deeds.... THEN Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire (HELL as we know it)

Death and Hades is not Hell, and is not Heaven... then what could it be??? The Catholic Church calls it Purgatory.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
Rev 21:27
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Nothing Unclean can enter Heaven, but not all sin is deadly (1 John 5:16) therefore we must have our sin purged (Isaiah 6:6-7) before we enter Heaven if we are guilty of lesser sins.



[quote]Then one day, it went from WORSE punishement than hell, to merely a place of seperation from God.[/quote]

The Church does not teach that. Some bad theologians do, and they go against Church teachings when they say falsehoods like that.


IV. Hell


1033
We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."


1034
Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna," of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616


1035
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.


1036
The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618


Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619


1037
God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621


Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm[/url]





Thank God for the Internet because now you can see what the Church really teaches without having to buy a Catechism.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[dairygirl4u2c]

Actually, the Muslim thing is more complicated that you, me, or anyone here has gotten into. Here is a pretty comprehensive and impressive defense from a Catholic on the issue.
[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1592440088/103-8421363-4430262?v=glance&n=283155"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159244008...glance&n=283155[/url]

But even that book has some shortfalls when you read it that I could get into, but no one here knows enough about it to discuss.