How confident is the church

[Proud2BCatholic139]

I believe so...

We need to be clean and pure as white as snow...

At least that was what was drilled in my brain at CCD...

[thessalonian]

The question I have is how sure are protestants against purgatory? You see Protestants believe in imputed righteousness rather than infused righteousness. Then after one has Christ's righteousness imputed to them and are justified they begin the process of sanctification which makes them actually pure over there lifetime. Though they in fact admit that noone reaches this state of perfection by the end of life. There's a problem there. As was stated above the Bible says that "nothing unclean shall enter". So if we are not fully purified at death something logically has to give.

Let's take an example. Billy Graham is riding a bus. A young man gets on and sits down next to him. This man is a druggy, lives with a woman who he cheats on, steals, lies, drunk all the time, etc. etc. He's among the lost. But Billy's warmth and his gospel message convert the man. Just in time, the bus goes off the road, over a cliff and both die. Well Billy has been through long years of sanctification. He has no desire for alcohol, drugs, extramarital relations, etc. etc. . Had the other man lived he still would have trouble dumping the booze down the sink or not smoking that dope he has in the closet. He doesn't have the strength to move out on that woman he is using, even though he knows now it is wrong. He would stuggle with his new faith. I agree they both go to heaven but one has gone through much sanctification and the other has not. Something has got to give for the one who has not.

I went the rounds for a week with a guy who finally said that Christ will purify the man by his grace. Amen, that's all purgatory is about. No one has given me a good answer that comes close to resolving this dilema. Snow covered dung still stinks and there isn't any in heaven. So tell me, who is more sure about purgatory?

[Andreas E.]

As a Baptist, I struggle with the concept of purgatory, as 2 Cor 3 says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There's nothing in between. I can see where you are coming from that nothing unclean can enter heaven, as it is scriptural as well. You can reconcile this when you think that the moment the sinner receives Christ all sin is wiped out, you know, going from scarlet red to white as snow?

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Andreas E.' post='978205' date='May 11 2006, 02:09 PM']
As a Baptist, I struggle with the concept of purgatory, as 2 Cor 3 says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There's nothing in between. I can see where you are coming from that nothing unclean can enter heaven, as it is scriptural as well. You can reconcile this when you think that the moment the sinner receives Christ all sin is wiped out, you know, going from scarlet red to white as snow?
[/quote]

Perhaps you might find St Thomas Aquinas' treatment of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/700100.htm"]Purgatory[/url] and [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/600200.htm"]The Quality of Souls Who Expiate Actual Sin or Its Punishment in Purgatory[/url]?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Andreas E.' post='978205' date='May 11 2006, 09:09 AM']
As a Baptist, I struggle with the concept of purgatory, as 2 Cor 3 says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There's nothing in between. I can see where you are coming from that nothing unclean can enter heaven, as it is scriptural as well. You can reconcile this when you think that the moment the sinner receives Christ all sin is wiped out, you know, going from scarlet red to white as snow?
[/quote]

I totally understand where you are coming from.

The Church does not teach that purgatory is exactly a "place", but something that happens.

Since no sin my enter Heaven, not all sin is deadly, and we have to pay every last penny, then if we die with a small sin that is not deadly it must be cleansed from us before we can enter Heaven. The Scriptures speak of that we'll be saved by fire... obviously this cannot be talking about hell because hell is eternal... so we Catholics call it "purgatory", it means to "purge"... just as in Isiah 6:5.

Please take another look at my post above, I have the Catechism quoted and a few bible verses.

Also, the teaching goes back to before the time of Christ & the Apostles... the Jews didn't have a name for it. The Mourners Kaddish was to be prayed for 11 months for a departed parent in atonement for their soul. The Catholic Church came up with the name "purgatory" when the teaching was beginning to be questioned, the Bishops of the Church gathered in council (just like in Acts) to discuss matters of the faith.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Andreas E.' post='978205' date='May 11 2006, 08:09 AM']
As a Baptist, I struggle with the concept of purgatory, as 2 Cor 3 says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There's nothing in between. I can see where you are coming from that nothing unclean can enter heaven, as it is scriptural as well. You can reconcile this when you think that the moment the sinner receives Christ all sin is wiped out, you know, going from scarlet red to white as snow?
[/quote]


What I am reading from you is infused righteousness which is what Catholicism teaches. Are you sure this is what your Baptist Church teaches? Did a google on baptist and imputed righteousness and I got alot of hits. Purgatory is not neccessarily out of the prescence of the Lord first of all. It is not neccessarily a long duration of time either. It is described in that manner to relate it to how we think in this life to help us relate. But that is not Church dogma by any means. The fact is that something has to give when someone dies and is not fully sanctified. Do you agree?

[prose]

[quote]You can reconcile this when you think that the moment the sinner receives Christ all sin is wiped out, you know, going from scarlet red to white as snow[/quote]

Well, yes. Because we still have sin after baptism. We all still struggle with sin. Purgatory cleanses us of anything that may be of this world before we leave this earth.

[zealousrap]

[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20040206000243/http://catholicapologetics.info/Purgator.htm"]http://web.archive.org/web/20040206000243/...fo/Purgator.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp[/url]

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='976430' date='May 9 2006, 02:20 PM']
Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality of LIMBO.

Then one day.....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality of 12 hour fasting before Communion.

Then one day....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality that Muslims were pagans bound for hell.

Then one day....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality that the Latin Mass was eternal.

Then one day...

As dedicated Catholics, we were TOLD that PURGETORY was forever, real and would NEVER be changed.

Then one day, it went from WORSE punishement than hell, to merely a place of seperation from God.

Then one day....
[/quote]

haha, so true so true. Although I don't think the 12 hour fast actually falls under doctrine and unchangeable, and purgatory will no longer exist at the end of the world(for there will be no purpose for it). Neither will Limbo at that time for that matter. But I agree with the rest of it for sure.

Edited May 26, 2006 by goldenchild17