For those opposed to LifeTeen

[Guest Rick777]

[quote name='dUSt' post='974722' date='May 7 2006, 05:03 PM']
You'll find that many phatmassers, including myself, have no problem with Lifeteen except for a few liturgical aspects of it.

I don't want to overlook the positive aspects of Lifeteen though, which are many. I just think a different approach to engaging teens into the liturgy would be more productive, because what happens to the teens who fall in love with the "Lifeteen way", leave home, and then have to "settle" on the common liturgy celebrated in every Catholic church?

[/quote]

Si senor.

[dUSt]

[quote name='jasJis' post='974788' date='May 7 2006, 07:08 PM']
Besides, Father J didn't care for phatmass years ago.
[/quote]
Why not?

[Luthien]

[quote name='jiyoung' post='974908' date='May 8 2006, 12:22 AM']
I think Lifeteen is okay. It's definitely been a great evangelization tool, bringing kids back into the Church. I just think that it's teaching a very shallow and emotional faith. I realize that this isn't the aim of the program, but with the way it's set up, there's no way to monitor how the program is used in each parish. I've found that it concentrates too much on what will entice teens.

I was involved in Lifeteen for a while and "spiritual highs and lows" were really common for me--I felt like I was spiritually bipolar or something. When I went to "Lifeteen Mass" and had the praise music and stuff, I felt great. But during the week, that tended to disappear. What grounded me in my faith was learning about the Truth, and developing [i]steady habits[/i] like daily mass, etc. Even though I felt like I had to force myself to do these things sometimes, I experienced far fewer "spiritual lows" this way. I think it was because I had developed a very firm foundation in the truth and so regardless of how I was feeling, I knew I would never stray from the faith again. Lifeteen seems to be more about "Lifeteen Mass" and "Lifenites" and whatnot--special events that aren't a part of daily life. Our faith needs to be part of our daily life. I don't think Lifeteen promotes that enough--again, not that it doesn't have that as part of its aim, but it's very vaguely focused.

For example: I am involved at a Korean church in my area. I went to a Steubenville conference with them, and there were girls tearfully talking about how they had felt they had lost their faith and God didn't love them because they didn't receive any "gifts of the Holy Spirit." This absolutely dumbfounded me until I realized that they had been basing their faith on these experiences. The charismatics were what their Catholicism was all about--isn't that sad? They didn't receive tongues or something and so their faith is gone. This is why I believe the charismatic movement (while admittedly valid) is flawed; it focuses too much on emotional aspects, which wax and wane with our feelings. (Incidentally, I came to this conclusion through PM's influence--Phatmass has done wonders for me.) Lifeteen, or at least all of the LT parishes I know of/have friends at, are heavily involved in charismatics. Again, this appeals to our emotions, and teenagers run HIGH on emotions, with girls declaring their love for their boyfriends after two weeks and threatening suicide if they break up after three, among other examples. This same church is also having a lot of problems with their youth group because people show up to these events but not necessarily to Mass, and become discouraged and end up leaving the Church.

My old church also modeled their youth group after LT. I ended up quitting the music ministry (a P&W affair, with drums and all) because the people in charge focused too much on using music as a tool to bring people to the Mass--therefore diverting attention from the Eucharist to the band. The music Lifeteen uses is very entertaining, but entertainment has no place in the Mass. Do you see jugglers in the Mass? (...this is a bad question, because I've heard of it being done, but still.) The music should help us focus on the Eucharist, not distract attention from it. The youth group at my old church is also suffering quite a bit. There are nasty cliques and the group does mostly "fellowship-based" (aka social) activities now.

I really think that Lifeteen, while it's a fairly effective tool, brings kids in in droves and then fails to do anything else with them. It might be a good starter (it was for me) but it really lacks substance.
[/quote]


Aaaaamen sister! Absolutely awesome post. That pretty much encompasses what I went through during my teen years, minus the LifeTeen. I never had LifeTeen, I had Steubie East and Youth 2000. Those are wonderful retreats, but I could not stay at that level my whole life. Its was only when I started learning about Catholicism by reading about Saints and being consistant in receiving the sarcaments, that I found this new faith that never wavered.

The Mass has had the same Eucharist for thousands of years, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Sarah_JC]

[quote name='dUSt' post='974722' date='May 7 2006, 06:03 PM']
I don't want to overlook the positive aspects of Lifeteen though, which are many. I just think a different approach to engaging teens into the liturgy would be more productive, because what happens to the teens who fall in love with the "Lifeteen way", leave home, and then have to "settle" on the common liturgy celebrated in every Catholic church?
[/quote]

But that is why we help them draw deeper, and share with them the joys of confession and adoration... mwa ha ha... then they're hooked!

I've read every complaint against Lifeteen but every program is different... our program has the added cross and blessing of having Confirmation students (which means this is their Confirmation class).
I've never seen a class as preapred as this one. I've never seen a class so excited about being confirmed (many of them spent HOURS and HOURS picking a Saint name... on their own time) However, it doesn't change the fact that 33 young men and women are about to recieve the sacrament (next Sunday), many of them having no support at home. So, please pray for them.

[the flutehonker]

hmmm...Lifeteen. Oh boy. It was the reaction to my comments on Lifeteen that made me afraid to post here for months.

For me, it's not the Lifeteen mass that drew me in. I'm perfectly ok with any of the masses my church offers, and find that I can draw substance from all of them, I just love homilies.

For me, it's the [i]program[/i] in general that really attracted me. I'm sure it's different everywhere, but my youth leader is so passionate about what he does, and anytime we can get 5 interested people together he'll do anything we ask for, for real stuff, not just social events. Our Lifeteen program isn't only about a different mass, we have a lifenight which basically is a fun hangout thing where we discuss a different topic every week, and this is mostly to draw new people in, especially because it's right after mass. We also have teen bible studies, and our "Monday Night Motivation" as well, which is where we really learn about our faith. Our Monday nights seem to be delving deeper and deeper, and I really enjoy everything that I am learning and how to be the best Christian I can possibly be. We do random stuff on Saturdays too when we think of something we want to particularly discuss if we feel we didn't go far enough on Monday or something. I'm in the process of calling some of my friends so we can organize a Theology of the Body.

We got together and celebrated Lord's Day two days ago, that was really fun and spiritually enhancing.

I have come to understand why so many people are against Lifeteen, and I can see your points. Apparently it's working better in some places than in others too. For me, however, the good Lifeteen has brought far outweighs the bad.

[inDEED]

Domine ut Videam, your intentions are good in posting this link and attempting to defend Lifeteen here on PM - but, trust me - opening up that can of worms is near pointless on PM...

While I completely support LT and will continue to do so, there are many on PM, many of whom I do respect, that refuse to give any credibility to the largest, most effective, Catholic youth ministry program in the world.

I'm glad you're involved in a dynamic LT program. Keep it up and remember to invite those teens in your high school that may not know Christ!

[Domine ut Videam]

[quote name='the flutehonker' post='975353' date='May 8 2006, 12:15 PM']
hmmm...Lifeteen. Oh boy. It was the reaction to my comments on Lifeteen that made me afraid to post here for months.

For me, it's not the Lifeteen mass that drew me in. I'm perfectly ok with any of the masses my church offers, and find that I can draw substance from all of them, I just love homilies.

For me, it's the [i]program[/i] in general that really attracted me. I'm sure it's different everywhere, but my youth leader is so passionate about what he does.
[/quote]
See this is what i mean... this is what i was trying to get across....

[Church Punk]

I used to be involved with LT. I have done some soul searching and have decided not to play music during mass anymore for several reasons.

-Most of the music they were playing is protestant music. Not to say that it was not good and uplifting, but it was rare that they would play anything that would metion Mary or anything else Catholic besided what the Protestants believe.

-I have descovered that the electric guitar even when used in appropreate and reverant way, still does not compare to the Gregorian Chant or pipe organ with a traditional choir. These standards the Church urges as use is because it is more holy during mass.

-The parish where I was playing at does not maintain the "new" LT liturgy, where as they still say their own closing prayer, The Mass...never ends it must be lived etc etc

As posted previously on here Lifeteen really can reach youth and teens. However there is much responsiblity on the heads of the co-ordinators to ensure proper cathecism is relayed though. I have seen very good fruits come from this program.

However I remember sitting in mass with the youth minister of the parish mentioned above when they began the Kyrie (in greek), he whispered to me what does that mean?

[jasJis]

[quote]Besides, Father J didn't care for phatmass years ago.[/quote]
[quote name='dUSt' post='975167' date='May 8 2006, 07:59 AM']
Why not?[/quote]Because he felt too many posts were written as if they were correct and athorative and issued judgement beyond their qualifications. He felt that people's faith would be abused and demeaned without allowance for where those people may be in their faith development.

How many times have you heard people say they were afraid to post here or ask a question or provide an opinion? How many non-Catholics come here asking questions and challenging Catholicism that don't soon get the 'heretical' and 'EECNS' and 'your religion is full of errors' response? Not many of the non-Cath visitors that visit here are as spiritually mature as BroAdam. Are surprised that Mulls left?

We all can't be marshmallow soft. (I know I can't) But neither can we all be the theological hammer and anvil. I'd sum it up in my own words as 'lack of pastorial tack' if I was being kind. Or maybe just lacking in balance.

[Guest Rick777]

Lifeteen.....somehow they have got it in thier minds that all kids want to do these days is "celebrate." "Lets celebrate this, lets celebrate that, we are celebrating on the Lord's day, we are celebrating the Eucharist was a favorite of a Lifeteen program at a parish near my house. It all seems so watered down to me. I'm trying hard to remember if I've ever heard a homily at a Lifeteen Mass that discussed anything other than celebrating something or other. Or a homliy when the priest didnt walk up and down the aisles.Don't get me wrong I love celebrating(lol) but what about the Sacrifice of the Mass? What about denying yourself and taking up your cross for Jesus? What about Mary, the Rosary, the Sacraments. I don't know about anyone else's Lifeteen experience but I think it was really just watered down Catholicism.

[the lords sheep]

I know what the opinions are regarding Lifeteen. And I know that there are definetely programs out there that are flawed, that aren't adhering to the new guidelines, and that have Youth Ministers and teens who forget that the reason they are there is to pray. But that does not mean all programs are bad. There are many churches that aren't Lifeteen that have much more irreverant Masses. Simply because a person can relate to one song over another, does that take away from the fact that we are all still given the priveledge to kneel before the Lord, who comes into our midst Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity?

In a good program, teens are able to recognize that there is "Mass after Lifeteen." In my parish, the teens at (8 am!) daily mass during the summer often outnumber the adults, and there is no "clappity celebrating hand holding kumbaya-ness" there. It's just a simple mass where we humbly kneel before the Lord.

I don't know that I would have ever come to the faith without a Lifeteen mass and without the support of the community that I found there. I would not be discerning a vocation now. I would not be attending daily mass. I would not be leading our rosary every week (at college). I would not go to adoration every week.

I'll finish with the same thing I tell my super-orthodox friends (not that I'm not for orthodoxy! I love Masses of all kinds, including the chanted Latin mass.) You cannot throw a catechism at someone telling them what they have to believe and how they have to practice without first letting them know that there is a loving, merciful and glorious God that loves them more than they are capable of every understanding; that they have soul that is precious and that someone cares for their spiritual welfare; and that they themselves have worth, have value, because they are God's children. I couldn't love God until someone first showed me that I was loved. And isn't that what any parish should be trying to do, Lifeteen or not?

[Domine ut Videam]

[quote name='Domine ut Videam' post='973517' date='May 6 2006, 10:39 AM']
First off, sorry if this isn't the appropriate place for this to go...i didn't really know where to post it.

A couple of weeks ago I had a very disturbing conversation with Eens on PhatChat about LifeTeen. He was telling me that the teens involved in LT basically were only in it for the loud music, and that it was a bad program, that had no good aspects. While I will admit that there are still some things about LT that i am still questioning I have seen 100fold the fruits of it's labor. I would like you all to read this thread and to check out this website. I started this thread out of curiosity of what type of responses I would get. The question that I asked the teens on the LT website was if they would go to mass if it was not LT mass.... because that was my problem with LT....but look at the responses I have gotten so far.

[url="http://www.lifeteen.com/default.aspx?PageID=TEENTALKTHREAD&&__ForumID=5&__ThreadID=16618"]Lifeteen Mass[/url]

Feel free to check out the rest of the forum. These are searching teens, but most are grounded in their Catholicism. And I just hate it when everyone is down on the teenage generation of today; because we are not what you think we are. Thanks for listening and being open.

-Yours in Christ
Lauren
[/quote]


Okay the link was my original intent of this post....please read the link and the responses posted there.......and then post your opinion of what you read. Thank you. Because i agree with everything that everyone is saying, you all have very legitimate points, but the one that i was trying to make....that the link shows has been avoided.....

[missionarybelle]

I think that some parts of LifeTeen are good and some are bad. I think that some of the biggest things that I've heard against it is that the kids don't sit with their familys any more. And I know that If the parents really wanted their kids to be with them they could force them. but it's hard to say that when all their friends are off sitting together somewhere else. I dunno I just think it's important to worship and pray as a family sometimes but at the Lifeteen Masses Ive been to, the kids never sit with their familys.

Also our parish is on Campus and has what they call a "student Mass" where they tryto get the college students to provide music, lectors servers etc. and they often use the praise and worship type music but they still try to keep playing the old hymns too.
I like the more modern music but so little of it is Catholic or community centered. like the praise and worshipy type music I have found to be mostly just about "me and God" which is great for praise and worship nights. but the older music has a lot of "we and God" talking about the Body of Christ as a whole in the community. I dunno if that made sense.

My third thing that I've found with LifeTeen, I'm sure it's mostly just been the parishes that I've gone to but the Masses have had so many kids in regular clothes (often not very modest), gum chewing, text messaging etc. I have just found myself distratec when i go there, by the youth.

I'm not against Life Teen, I have many friends who have found it to be a wonderful boost in their faith, this has just been my personal experience with it.

[Oik]

I helped out with LifeTeen. It is a great approach to Youth ministry, infact, the most effective approach I have ever heard of or experienced.

That being said, it was not very good for Catechesis. Now, it is condusive for Catechesis. Unfortuanely, the program is mostly focused too much on ministering to the teens and meeting them where they are at. Placing too much emphasis on these areas the way LT does is a flaw. The teens don't learn the faith to the extent that they could in LifeTeen. Sure, the teems learn the faith per se. It's too much glitter and glamor though. It creates a Catholic enterainment bubble for teens. They go to hang out and enjoy LifeTeen. They go for LifeTeen.

Of course, LT is a littel different everywhere, so it has varied levels of successfulness. I can only tell you what I experienced from St. Tim's (LT headquarters) and the Phoenix area.

It's a great stepping stone. It also provides a lot of opportunites for paid youth ministry positions. It helps those older in the parish to minister to the teenages (especially with the core members).

One big problem is the music used for teen masses in the US. When I was in Poland, they didn't use rock music and contemporary "praise and worship". The Churches were packed for the teen masses.

I think LifeTeen could be a great program if the focus placed more on the Church and less on LifeTeen. It is not enough to get teens in the Church. That Grace is not as frutiful if the environment is infantile.


What will convert teens is holiness and beauty, not enthusiastic rock music and entertainment in the Mass. I like what Phatmass did and what Dust talked about. That will bring the teens in. The Church needs to be the Church. Chirst has to be Chirst. That is what the teens are looking for, not a 'buddy' or some comfortable version of Catholicism.

I know LifeTeen can bring teens closer to Christ with holiness and beauty! I hope they realize that.

[Ash Wednesday]

Bowow... chicka chicka... bowow...chicka chicka... bow wow ... chikachika bow wow wow...

[jiyoung]

Maybe a mixture of Phatmass and Lifeteen? heh, right...honestly though, my whole thing is that you can't stay grounded in your faith if you don't know what it is, and LT offers very, very poor catechesis. I think if LT beefed up the catechesis and left the Mass alone, it'd be far more effective and not nearly as controversial.

[hopeful1]

i used to post on the lifeteen message board before i ever knew phatmass existed, and while i have yet to attend a 'full fledged' lifeteen mass, i can say that many of kids on the board truly are searching and wanted to learn more and grow in their faith. in fact, i've actually learned alot of things about Catholicism from them. i even found out about Phatmass through a link someone posted on the message board. dislike some of the things the organization does/did with the liturgy, but i think it does a lot of good too bringing more people in.

[goldenchild17]

Not able to offer anything useful to the discussion. But I can't support LifeTeen. I'm 19 and had spent all 4 years of high school in it, and one year as a volunteer/leader. Even before I went all crazy theologically() I had decided I had had enough of it... Why do we need to disrespect our teens(and the Mass as well) by thinking we need to dumb it down for them? Many other reasons I have problems with it, but I just find this disrespectful to teens.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='dUSt' post='974722' date='May 7 2006, 07:03 PM']
You'll find that many phatmassers, including myself, have no problem with Lifeteen except for a few liturgical aspects of it.

Why? Well, your own statement is why...
We [b]are[/b] all one body, so we should all celebrate the sacrafice of the mass the same way. No reason to change or alter the liturgy for one specific demographic.

I don't want to overlook the positive aspects of Lifeteen though, which are many. I just think a different approach to engaging teens into the liturgy would be more productive, because what happens to the teens who fall in love with the "Lifeteen way", leave home, and then have to "settle" on the common liturgy celebrated in every Catholic church?

What we tried to do at the first phatmass event was to attract teens with music, activities and fun--but all of this came [b]before[/b] and [b]after[/b] mass, not during. The contrast that was created, I think, had a profound influence on the teens and I believe that they all got a lot more out of that mass for that very reason.
[/quote]
I can back that statement. The contrast was extraordinary. Mass was beautiful and the other things were great.

[quote name='dUSt' post='974767' date='May 7 2006, 07:41 PM']
... What Akalyte meant was that the church, in it's universal form, is what the teens should be attracted to, and not just the Lifeteen presentation of it. ...
[/quote]
Exactly.

[quote name='jiyoung' post='974908' date='May 7 2006, 10:22 PM']
I think Lifeteen is okay. It's definitely been a great evangelization tool, bringing kids back into the Church. I just think that it's teaching a very shallow and emotional faith. I realize that this isn't the aim of the program, but with the way it's set up, there's no way to monitor how the program is used in each parish. I've found that it concentrates too much on what will entice teens.

I was involved in Lifeteen for a while and "spiritual highs and lows" were really common for me--I felt like I was spiritually bipolar or something. When I went to "Lifeteen Mass" and had the praise music and stuff, I felt great. But during the week, that tended to disappear. What grounded me in my faith was learning about the Truth, and developing [i]steady habits[/i] like daily mass, etc. Even though I felt like I had to force myself to do these things sometimes, I experienced far fewer "spiritual lows" this way. I think it was because I had developed a very firm foundation in the truth and so regardless of how I was feeling, I knew I would never stray from the faith again. Lifeteen seems to be more about "Lifeteen Mass" and "Lifenites" and whatnot--special events that aren't a part of daily life. Our faith needs to be part of our daily life. I don't think Lifeteen promotes that enough--again, not that it doesn't have that as part of its aim, but it's very vaguely focused.

For example: I am involved at a Korean church in my area. I went to a Steubenville conference with them, and there were girls tearfully talking about how they had felt they had lost their faith and God didn't love them because they didn't receive any "gifts of the Holy Spirit." This absolutely dumbfounded me until I realized that they had been basing their faith on these experiences. The charismatics were what their Catholicism was all about--isn't that sad? They didn't receive tongues or something and so their faith is gone. This is why I believe the charismatic movement (while admittedly valid) is flawed; it focuses too much on emotional aspects, which wax and wane with our feelings. (Incidentally, I came to this conclusion through PM's influence--Phatmass has done wonders for me.) Lifeteen, or at least all of the LT parishes I know of/have friends at, are heavily involved in charismatics. Again, this appeals to our emotions, and teenagers run HIGH on emotions, with girls declaring their love for their boyfriends after two weeks and threatening suicide if they break up after three, among other examples. This same church is also having a lot of problems with their youth group because people show up to these events but not necessarily to Mass, and become discouraged and end up leaving the Church.

My old church also modeled their youth group after LT. I ended up quitting the music ministry (a P&W affair, with drums and all) because the people in charge focused too much on using music as a tool to bring people to the Mass--therefore diverting attention from the Eucharist to the band. The music Lifeteen uses is very entertaining, but entertainment has no place in the Mass. Do you see jugglers in the Mass? (...this is a bad question, because I've heard of it being done, but still.) The music should help us focus on the Eucharist, not distract attention from it. The youth group at my old church is also suffering quite a bit. There are nasty cliques and the group does mostly "fellowship-based" (aka social) activities now.

I really think that Lifeteen, while it's a fairly effective tool, brings kids in in droves and then fails to do anything else with them. It might be a good starter (it was for me) but it really lacks substance.
[/quote]
Nice post.

[quote name='Luthien' post='975225' date='May 8 2006, 09:42 AM']
Aaaaamen sister! Absolutely awesome post. That pretty much encompasses what I went through during my teen years, minus the LifeTeen. I never had LifeTeen, I had Steubie East and Youth 2000. Those are wonderful retreats, but I could not stay at that level my whole life. Its was only when I started learning about Catholicism by reading about Saints and being consistant in receiving the sarcaments, that I found this new faith that never wavered.

The Mass has had the same Eucharist for thousands of years, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
[/quote]
Youth 2000, IMHO, is not exactly like lifeteen. I believe you can grow with Youth 2000. It's like a movie you watch as a kid and enjoy but then understand more when you grow older. The older you get and the more you watch it, the more you see and understand. You don't have to be lacking in faith to gain something from the brothers and sisters who speak there.

[quote name='inDEED' post='975366' date='May 8 2006, 12:32 PM']
Domine ut Videam, your intentions are good in posting this link and attempting to defend Lifeteen here on PM - but, trust me - opening up that can of worms is near pointless on PM...

While I completely support LT and will continue to do so, there are many on PM, many of whom I do respect, that refuse to give any credibility to the largest, [b]most effective[/b], Catholic youth ministry program in the world.

I'm glad you're involved in a dynamic LT program. Keep it up and remember to invite those teens in your high school that may not know Christ!
[/quote]
(emphasis mine)

It may be the largest but I think a number of testimonies have proven that it is not the most effective.

[stbernardLT]

As a LIFE TEEN youth minister who is very pleased with what our parish has become since we started the program (in all aspects including religion education) I am always offended by the unfounded stereotypes and misunderstandings of LIFE TEEN on this website by some people. I've seen the program done correctly and I've seen it done incorrectly, but I doubt that anyone has seen every program. The teaching part of the program totally relies on THOSE TEACHING, not the international organization. The material they give in packed full of cathecism references, bible references, and saint references. Whether or not these excellent resources are used depends on the one using them. I would like to know how many of you actually have ever planned a LIFE night using their resources.

This phorum seems to be filled with those who love to criticize and constantly talk down on things that are doing a lot of good, just because they had a bad experience. It is kind of like a catholic who leaves the church because a priest was rude to them. Well that preist doesn't represent every other priest, just like one parish cannot possibly represent every other parish.

I always have to laugh when those who go to certain masses and talk about how beautiful it was, criticize LT for entertaining in the same breathe. Whether you are entertained with you eyes or your ears it is still entertainment.

I'm not achrismatic but I have nothing against those who are (as long as they follow the rules). I've learned just because someone prays different than me doesn't mean they are inferior in spirituality, or it is a bad thing.

One last thing. How can loving God emotionally be a bad thing. He did say love me with your whole being (does this not include our emotions). Was the crucifixion and the birth of Jesus not emotional events for Mary. Practice what you preach and learn from the Mother of God. I agree this shouldn't be the total focus, but it shouldn't be excluded either.

Some people her seem to get more immature as time goes on.