"By grace alone?"

[Era Might]

Is this phrase entirely accurate? We know salvation is certainly not by faith or works alone, but is it really by grace alone? Where does that leave individual choice? Of course, individual choice must be carried by grace, but there's still that element that is outside of grace, the element of actual choice. Kinda like how faith works through charity, doesn't grace have to work through personal choice?

Also, does anyone know if the Church has used the phrase "by grace alone" in any of its documents?

[Aloysius]

we are not saved by our faith or by our works, but by the free gift of grace. through our faith and works we sustain the grace given to us and keep our bodies in a state receptive to the grace God wishes to give us, but that action cannot be said to be saving us. it is God who saves us.

grace is like a puppy given to us freely by God. this puppy can lead the way to heaven. but if we do not feed the puppy, the puppy will die. that does not mean that feeding the puppy gets us into heaven; it is technically the puppy alone who gets us into heaven.

so I would say it is accurate to say grace alone saves us. if we do not do good works which sustain our faith then we cannot properly receive grace and any grace which we have received can be starved to death by evil works and lack of good works and lack of faith.

[thessalonian]

Well I just did a search on the vatican website and got 7 hits. 2 were on the joint declaration. Like everything else I suppose it has it's context in which it is true and in which it isn't. If grace alone does not include the actions that grace is meant to produce (i.e. faith and works) such that grace that does not bring about the effect (i.e. resisted grace) still saves, then there would be a problem.

The grace/personal choice stuff is kind of a mystery to me. How grace that effects choice does not violate that God alone saves is kind of a funny area. But I think it is that when we make the choice the events guided by God's grace before we recieved the grace caused the choice and so it is okay to claim the choice as from grace. That's my view.

[God Conquers]

Maybe the question can be answered simply:

We choose grace or we reject grace.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Sola gratia! Grace alone -- but a grace we have to co-operate with. Thinking that all one has to do is pray the "Sinner's Prayer" once to be saved is wrong. Thinking that all one has to do is be a "good person" to be saved is wrong.

[b] Catholic teaching for 2,000 years:
we are saved by grace alone, through faith that works in love

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[/b]

Edited June 22, 2006 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Aloysius]

make sure to note it is not our cooperation which saves us, as if the grace itself were insufficient. it is our cooperation (i.e. good works which nourish our faith) which makes us receptive to the grace which alone saves us.

a formula like "1/2 grace + 1/2 human cooperation = salvation" would be semi-pelagian and heretical. it is "100% grace + human ability to receive that grace as nourished by faith and works = salvation"

Ephesians 2:8-9 has always been the greatest explanation of the Catholic position. Grace works through faith. If there is no faith, there is nothing for grace to work with. Good works keep faith alive (for faith without works is dead say the scriptures) so without them, there would be no faith, and thus nothing for grace to work with in you.

[God Conquers]

Grace is like a trolley car headed to heaven. We can get on when it stops for us, or turn our backs and walk away. We can't walk along the tracks and expect to make it.

[Aloysius]

in your analogy, Faith is our legs. mortally sinning is cutting off our legs... and doing good works keeps our knee joints intact. if we don't have legs, we cannot step on the trolly, because everyone knows trollys are never politically correct and are not handicap-accessible.

[God Conquers]

There's a wheelchair accessible bus behind the trolley that goes to purgatory.

[rkwright]

[quote name='God Conquers' post='1010056' date='Jun 21 2006, 06:49 PM']
There's a wheelchair accessible bus behind the trolley that goes to purgatory.
[/quote]

dang theres some deep theology there....


again it seems like a very fine like between free choice and our choice meriting us grace. I think this is most interesting in light of so many protestant ideas that 'all you have to do is pray a prayer and bam you're saved'. This 'act' must be properly understood as acting in cooperation with grace already present (correct?) rather than getting on your knees and praying then obtaining grace for salvation. In its uneducated form, the protestant road to salvation is the exact thing they blame us for; salvation through works.

[desertwoman]

how odd. we are talking about this over at the other forums. they claim that catholics practice semi pelegaism.

[Aloysius]

Catholics are the ones that condemned pelagius as a heretic

but that it a common anti-Catholic misconception fueled by some fuzzy Catholic explanations which say stuff like "human will cooperating with grace" which connotates something semi-pelagian, when in point of fact it is not intended that way (see my formulas above)

[Guest JeffCR07]

it should be pointed out that our co-operation with God's Grace is itself a Grace. There is much of value that we can learn from St. Terese's teaching that "everying is a grace." As this is true, it makes perfect sense that we are saved [i]sola gratia[/i].

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='JeffCR07' post='1010114' date='Jun 22 2006, 02:29 AM']
it should be pointed out that our co-operation with God's Grace is itself a Grace. There is much of value that we can learn from St. Terese's teaching that "everying is a grace." As this is true, it makes perfect sense that we are saved [i]sola gratia[/i].
[/quote]

As our holy father St Augustine would remind us the very first movement of the will towards God in any way shape or form is the fruit of grace. It is the shepherd coming after the 1 sheep that has left the 99 others and trying to coax it home. The sheep can always continue off on its way, it is free too, but if it does come back to its owner its because He has called it. Grace precedes action, be that action faith or virtue.

PS) Jeff for Church Scholar!!

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Myles Domini' post='1010259' date='Jun 21 2006, 11:42 PM']
PS) Jeff for Church Scholar!!
[/quote]
yeah, I've been saying this for ages.. I kind of forgot that he wasn't a Church Scholar. whoops!