kateri05 Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 i lectored for the first time today at my new parish and i got reemed out by the lay MC for kneeling after everyone had received communion thru the sacred silence. he said that we HAVE to stand until the priest sits following purification and then we HAVE to sit (ie kneeling is never an option - lol he also said that what the pastor says is the law, it doesn't matter what the pope says , nevermind that i never referenced the pope, but i was just like uhhh i'm not aruging with you about the GIRM in the sacristry after mass, sorry!) now, in my archdiocese, our cardinal has said that we must stand after the Agnus Dei but the GIRM also says [quote]They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.[/quote] its an issue because lectors are stuck sitting on the altar the GIRM simply says "sacred silence" so i am trying to determine when that begins? after i have received communion, after all have received communion or after hte priest sits down following his purification of vessels? for uniformity of posture, i thought i had heard after all had received but i can't find a source for that; does anyone have one? must i stand (please say no ) in submission to... i dont even know. apparently the pastor.... cuz i don't know if this comes from mahoney or not.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 stand? really? i kneel from the time we kneel when the gifts are at the altar until we stand for the final blessing. it always amazes me that people sit during the sacred silence. standing or kneeling... i prefer kneeling. ((we don't stand while people receive - of course we also kneel at an altar rail...)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted June 26, 2006 Author Share Posted June 26, 2006 we HAVE to stand after the agnus dei because our bishop has said so and he is allowed to according to the the GIRM paragraph 42 or 43 i believe. otherwise, hugh, i'd be with ya all the way hence my problem... anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 This reminds me of something a friend told me; is it true that when a priest / bishop breaks from liturgical norm, we are supposed to comply until it is corrected by the system? I was told that if I see a liturgical abuse I should consult the priest or bishop but until the abuse is fixed I should comply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandelynmarie Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 I agree Zigga...obedience is necessary...but the problem does need to be addressed...For example, during Christmastide & the Easter Season our parish priest "made" us stand during the Consecration as a sign of unity with other Christians...Now granted, I was kneeling for Easter Vigil at the consecration because I knelt before the announcement was made... ...But a friend of mine told me it was better to be obedient than to assume a different posture...NOW, some of my congregation is confused as to when to kneel...& I just sorta bang my kneeler down so they get the idea...They did this last year & it truly bothers me...but...whta can you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 [quote name='kateri05' post='1012122' date='Jun 25 2006, 09:15 PM'] we HAVE to stand after the agnus dei because our bishop has said so and he is allowed to according to the the GIRM paragraph 42 or 43 i believe. otherwise, hugh, i'd be with ya all the way hence my problem... anyone? [/quote] [quote name='GIRM #43']The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below. They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed. In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. [i]The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.[/i] [i][b]With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.[/b][/i][/quote] So, the question becomes and this you have a right to know (your pastor simply saying so is not sufficient), what is the "some other good reason?" I would be willing to bet that the reasoning is not universally good. Also, I would ask your MC does the pastor follow EVERY SINGLE rubric? If he answers yes, then the pastor should be celebrating the Mass "ad orientam" because there are multiple moments where the priest is directed to turn and face the people, while standing at the altar. If you MC wants to get caught up on semantics, then I would hold him to those semantics. The 1975 GIRM prescribed that the priest should face the people: For the opening greeting; For the invitation to pray; Before beginning the Eucharistic Prayer (or Canon of the Mass); When displaying the consecrated host before receiving and giving communion; and When inviting to pray at the postcommunion prayer. The 2002 edition adds the point at which the priest gives the greeting of peace. Consistency. Consistency. Consistnecy. You have the right to kneel, unless prescribed above. What is the "some other good reason?" That is where you should start. You have a right to know. That is called proper Catechesis. The answer, "because I said so," is not a good enough answer. Hold your MC and your pastor accountable. They are in charge of your formation as a Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morostheos Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Hi Cam, She's not asking about during the Eucharistic prayer, which the paragraph you are referring to applies, but about the silence after Communion, which the paragraph she quoted applies. What are your thoughts about kneeling/standing at that point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 [quote name='kateri05' post='1012011' date='Jun 25 2006, 04:11 PM'] i lectored for the first time today at my new parish and i got reemed out by the lay MC for kneeling after everyone had received communion thru the sacred silence. [/quote] what is a lay MC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 [quote name='morostheos' post='1012378' date='Jun 26 2006, 08:16 AM'] Hi Cam, She's not asking about during the Eucharistic prayer, which the paragraph you are referring to applies, but about the silence after Communion, which the paragraph she quoted applies. What are your thoughts about kneeling/standing at that point? [/quote] My point is valid. Read the whole of the quote, especially the part that I italicized. The point applies to the kneeling after the Angus Dei as well. What is the "good reason" for the bishop to determine that he must deter from the established norm? My thoughts have not changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted June 27, 2006 Author Share Posted June 27, 2006 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1012384' date='Jun 26 2006, 05:31 AM'] what is a lay MC? [/quote] exactly.... lets just say, a man who wears a necklace during mass that says "eucharistic minister" i decided NOT to argue the semantics of his inappropriatly titled cross on a leather thong : anyways cam, so ... bascially i need to ask why? lol i feel like an "ad orientem" arugment wouldn't help my case tho, as much as i agree with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cappie Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 CONGREGATIO DE CULTU DIVINO ET DISCIPLINA SACRAMENTORUM Prot. n. 2372/00/L Responses to Dubia 1. Is it the case that the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, by No. 43 of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, intends to prohibit the faithful from kneeling during any part of the Mass except during the Consecration, that is, to prohibit the faithful from kneeling after the Agnus Dei and following the reception of Holy Communion? Resp.: Negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 [quote name='kateri05' post='1012710' date='Jun 26 2006, 08:39 PM'] exactly.... lets just say, a man who wears a necklace during mass that says "eucharistic minister" i decided NOT to argue the semantics of his inappropriatly titled cross on a leather thong : anyways cam, so ... bascially i need to ask why? lol i feel like an "ad orientem" arugment wouldn't help my case tho, as much as i agree with you! [/quote] The point of my response is....simply that if they are going to get that techinical in their interpretation of the GIRM, then you should hold them on ALL of the GIRM, not simply what they want to hold as authoritative. That is my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandelynmarie Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 (edited) Soooo...it would have been ok to kneel during the Consecration? or after Holy Communion...regardless of what was said? I'm slightly confused... Edited June 27, 2006 by brandelynmarie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
journeyman Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 "good reason" . . . I remembered something I left out of my last confession, and wanted to make amends quickly I have a circulatory condition and if I stand too long, the risk of blood clots climbing from the legs increases exponentially [quote] In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. [\quote] Just to make sure I'm not confusing my terms . . . Is the "Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer" the same as the "Great Amen" . . . our parish is encouraged to stand for the Great Amen . . . I've remained kneeling because I read the above text to say "after" . . . which means until it is completed Because it's such a "big deal" I remain standing after receiving, but often kneel while the EM exit to the sacristy . . . it usually isn't long enough the term lay MC also threw me, I've encountered people who hold a position as master of ceremonies - coordinating the liturgy for the bishop when visiting a parish - but hadn't heard that term applied to the EMs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted June 28, 2006 Author Share Posted June 28, 2006 he was both a master of ceremonies and a EMoHC for that Mass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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