Where's the heresy

[Jaime]

There have been a number of debates about protestants, muslims and groups considered "rad trad". I thought it would be interesting to shine the light on our own back yard.


[quote]Catholic author Ken C. Jones' recent book, 'Index of Leading Catholic Indicators' shows that only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent lay religious teachers believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent teachers believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent lay religious teachers believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.[/quote]


Some will argue the veracity of these stats, which is their right. But I doubt that anyone will contest the fact that these beliefs are prevalent amongst our Catholic brethren.

[homeschoolmom]

IMHO, A Catholic who claims to be Catholic but doesn't believe in the Real Presence (I don't mean occational doubt-- I mean DOESN'T BELIEVE) is far worse than Protestants who believe in the tennents of their faith.

[Sojourner]

yes and more important

[jswranch]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1012438' date='Jun 26 2006, 08:50 AM']
There have been a number of debates about protestants, muslims and groups considered "rad trad". I thought it would be interesting to shine the light on our own back yard.
Some will argue the veracity of these stats, which is their right. But I doubt that anyone will contest the fact that these beliefs are prevalent amongst our Catholic brethren.
[/quote]
I remember seeing an article on how pollers often rephrase questions to meet their desires. They can ask questions like, "do you still beat your wife?" Answering yes or no makes them wife beaters.


Besides, if the poll really bugs you, hold a poll of your own in the parking lot after mass.

Edited June 26, 2006 by jswranch

[Jaime]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1012451' date='Jun 26 2006, 10:18 AM']
I remember seeing an article on how pollers often rephrase questions to meet their desires. They can ask questions like, "do you still beat your wife?" Answering yes or no makes them wife beaters.
Besides, if the poll really bugs you, hold a poll of your own in the parking lot after mass.
[/quote]


I can't tell by your response if you agree with the poll responses or not

[thessalonian]

Luke 12:48: But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.


Heresy in the Catholic Church is definitely the greater sin.

[God Conquers]

hmmm, depends on who you ask...

St. Ignatius of Antioch said the gnostics of his time weren't Christians for two reasons:

1- They didn't take care of the poor

2- They didn't believe the eucharist was truly the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

As for me...

I'm with Papa B in saying that the word "heretic" doesn't really apply any more, since most people are just plain ignorant.

[morostheos]

I think the majority of those who don't believe in the true presence of the Eucharist are material heretics, not formal heretics.

[quote]heretic

One who having professed the faith of Christ corrupts its dogmas. He may be a material heretic, adhering to heresy innocently or from involuntary causes, or a formal heretic, knowingly and freely adhering to heresy. One who holds opinions at variance with recognized teachings in philosophy, science, or art; since the term is somewhat odious, it is more properly applied to the originators of heresy than to their descendants and remote followers.

New Catholic Dictionary
[/quote][url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/SAINTS/ncd03897.htm"]http://www.catholic-forum.com/SAINTS/ncd03897.htm[/url]

[sweetpea316]

I totally read the question wrong. My answer is opposite of what I meant it to be, oops!

[MC Just]

why dont we just say nothing is evil anymore? that's where I see it leading to. No more heresy... no more wrong, oh unless your a sspxer. I find this very troubling. muslims, protestants, hindu's all these weirdo's get more respect than those in the Church.

[XIX]

Who is the world inferred that nothing is evil??

[MC Just]

[quote name='XIX' post='1012598' date='Jun 26 2006, 04:04 PM']
Who is the world inferred that nothing is evil??
[/quote]

what I mean is, it seems like eveything the church use to condemn as heresy or evil is not being called heretical or evil anymore..Why are we becoming "soft".? We have become so open to everything outside the church that church in many places no longer resembles the church. Gay priests, liberals, disseters, lousy church architects, lousy music directors. Why are our churches becoming more and more unatractive? Are we trying to convert people by stooping down to their level? I just dont understand..

why are things that are destructive to our Faith being tolerated? liberalism, modernsim,

Edited June 26, 2006 by MC Just

[Guest Rick777]

I really like MC Just's posts. Just thought I say that.

I answered Yes and More Important.

[Nathan]

[quote name='MC Just' post='1012614' date='Jun 26 2006, 03:18 PM']Are we trying to convert people by stooping down to their level?[/quote]

Unfortunately, yes. We're compromising. The thought, espoused by prominent liberal theologians the world over, is that the Church cannot reach people in this secular age without making concessions -- becoming, in effect, more secular ourselves. The Catholic faith of old is deemed "too hard" for people today.

It's wacky, because the dioceses that are orthodox and stress the traditional ways are the healthiest. The areas that are suffering are the liberal ones.

[philothea]

I can only guess that Just hasn't looked at the poll results...

[Era Might]

[quote]Are 70% of Catholics heretics?[/quote]

A lot of them probably are, but a lot of them are just badly catechized. Unfortunately, Priests will have a lot to answer for this generation.

[Guest Rick777]

I've often wondered what the end times will be like if we arent already in them.....how much worse can it get?

[Socrates]

Any Catholic who does not believe in the Real Presence is guilty of heresy (at least materially). If he knows the Church teaching on the Real Presence, yet does not believe in it, he is guilty of formal heresy. If he has never made any real effort to learn what the Church teaches on the Eucharist, he may be guilty of a sin of neglect. If he was taught falsely by bad religious instruction, those who taught him will bear much of the guilt.
Liberal priests and bishops will have much to answer for!

However, while I would agree that proper catechesis of Catholics is a more urgent issue, I do not think there is anything wrong with arguing against or about views of protestants and others on this issue. The Catholic teaching is in the Real Presence. There is nothing wrong with discussing or arguing the Catholic view verses the heretical views of other sects.

I think this poll tries to create a false dilemna ("we cannot argue about the teachings of other sects unless every self-professed "Catholic" believes in the Real Presence"), which is why I did not vote in it. The Catholic teaching is the truth. All contrary teachings are heretical, whoever professes them.

And actually, I think arguing the Catholic teaching on various doctrines verses those of various protestants, etc. can help clarify and teach the true Catholic position to any ignorant or mis-informed Catholics who might be reading.

Edited June 27, 2006 by Socrates

[philothea]

This is probably not especially charitable of me...

But I can't see how [i]any Catholic who has ever been to a mass[/i] can have failed to notice the general Church-wide belief in the real presence. Nevermind catechesis. I understood what was going on with the eucharist when I was a non-Christian, unbaptized 10 year old... by listening to the words of the mass! No one had explained anything to me, but it seemed pretty obvious from the words and actions.

So I don't buy the "badly catechized" excuse, unless some wayward teacher actually taught error. Sure that could happen... but 70%?

[morostheos]

[quote name='philothea' post='1012730' date='Jun 26 2006, 09:08 PM']
This is probably not especially charitable of me...

But I can't see how [i]any Catholic who has ever been to a mass[/i] can have failed to notice the general Church-wide belief in the real presence. Nevermind catechesis. I understood what was going on with the eucharist when I was a non-Christian, unbaptized 10 year old... by listening to the words of the mass! No one had explained anything to me, but it seemed pretty obvious from the words and actions.

So I don't buy the "badly catechized" excuse, unless some wayward teacher actually taught error. Sure that could happen... but 70%?
[/quote]


I think a lot of times being badly catechized is much worse than not being catechized at all, unfortunately.