Bishop says Medjugorje apparitions are divisive

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote]Medjugorje apparition claims are divisive, bishop warns

Jul. 04 (CWNews.com) - The Catholic bishop whose diocese includes the town of Medjugorje has warned that "something similar to a schism" has arisen at the parish church where apparitions of the Virgin Mary are alleged to take place.

In a homily delivered in Medjugorje on the feast of Corpus Christi, Bishop Ratko Peric of Mostar-Duvno, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, said that both he and his predecessor have expressed severe misgivings about the reported apparitions. He added that both Pope John Paul II (bio - news) and Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) backed the judgments of the local bishops.

In his homily Bishop Peric explained that-- "while recognizing the Holy Father's right to give a final decision" on the validity of the reported apparitions-- he doubted their validity. He recalled that when he discussed the reports from Medjugorje with Vatican officials, including then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, they shared his incredulity.

"They particularly do not seem to be authentic," the bishop observed, "when it is known before that these so-called 'apparitions' will occur." Bishop Peric cited the schedule that the Medjugorje seers have provided, listing the times and places at which they claim the next visits by the Mother of God will occur. Thousands of messages from Mary are now claimed, and the bishop observed that "the flood of so-called apparitions, messages, secrets, and signs do not strengthen the faith, but rather further convince us that in all of this there is nothing neither authentic nor established as truthful."

The first reported appearances of the Virgin at Medjugorje occurred just over 25 years ago. During the 1980s, thousands of Catholic flocked to the little town, with many reporting profound spiritual experiences. These pilgrimages were eventually slowed by the violent bloodshed that tore through the region in the 1990s and by the increasingly public skepticism of the hierarchy.

Bishop Peric reminded his people of the restrictions that he has imposed on activities in Medjugorje. The parish church is not formally a "shrine," he said, and should not be characterized as such. Pilgrimages to the church are discouraged. Priests there are "not authorized to express their private views contrary to the official position of the Church on the so-called 'apparitions' and 'messages,' during celebrations of the sacraments, nor during other common acts of piety, nor in the Catholic media."

The bishops urged the "seers" of Medjugorje to "demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish."

Some of the Franciscan priests assigned to the Medjugorje parish, he said, have been expelled from their order because of their refusal to accept Church authority. "They have not only been illegally active in these parishes, but they have also administered the sacraments profanely, while others invalidly," he said. As Bishop of Mostar-Duvno, he said, he felt obliged to warn the faithful "who invalidly confess their sins to these priests and participate in sacrilegious liturgies."
[/quote]

Here ya go... This should definitely be taken seriously since it's coming directly from the Bishop overseeing Medjugorje.

[brendan1104]

Both His Excellency's predecessor, the bishop himself, the Church's dogmatic magisterial teaching, and common sense tell you that Medjugorje is not real. When will people finally abandon their stubborness and blind faith and realize these are false apparitions? "Mary's" denial of Catholic dogma is certainly enough evidence of their falsehood.

[quote]"The Madonna always stresses that there is but one God and that people have enforced unnatural separation. One cannot truly believe, be a true Christian, if he does not respect other religions as well."[/quote] – "Seer" Ivanka Ivankovic, [i]The Apparitions of Our Lady of Medjugorje[/i], Franciscan Herald Press, 1984.

[quote]"The Madonna said that religions are separated in the earth, but the people of all religions are accepted by her Son."[/quote] – "Seer" Ivanka Ivankovic, [i]The Apparitions of Our Lady of Medjugorje[/i], Franciscan Herald Press, 1984.

Question: "Is the Blessed Mother calling all people to be Catholic?"
Answer: [quote]"No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son."[/quote] –"Seer" Vicka Ivankovic, [i] The Apparitions of the Blessed Mother at Medjugorje[/i], St. Martin's Press, 1992.

Vicka therefore claims that apostates, heretics, and schismatics can enter heaven persisting in their sinful, obstinate error. This quote alone proves that Medjugorje is totally false, and a deceit of the devil.

[u]What does the Catholic Church say?[/u]

[quote]"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.[/quote]
(Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

[quote]"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." [/quote]
(Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

Edited July 4, 2006 by brendan1104

[the_rev]

Say what you say about Medjugorje, and I'll say what I say.

It is through the love of the Blessed Mother that I was called to spend time as a foreign exchange student in a tiny village that is deeply religious even though I was an atheist. I came to believe in the faith through Medjugorje, and have come to a vocational calling from Medjugorje.

It has done good for me.

Also, why was this posted in Open Mic, it is just going to turn into a debate. Let's use some common sense.

[prose]

This is very interesting. My mother-in-law is very fond of Medjugorje in her prayer life. I gently have mentioned to her that it has not been approved, but I think she thinks that this is by liberal leaders trying to hide the truth.

I am so glad to see information from you Brendan.

[the_rev]

Information from Brendan, a good source there.... look at his group....

His quotes are not the full quotations. Maybe he would care to share the entire quotes instead of just what he wants to quote to support his case.

Edited July 4, 2006 by the_rev

[prose]

I am not saying I have an opinion either way on this. I just am reluctant to follow something that has so many misgivings within the Church.

[quote]
The official Church teaching concerning private revelation is explained by Pope Benedict XIV (18th century.):

"[The Church] simply permits them [private revelations] to be published for the instruction and the edification of the faithful. The assent to be given to them is not therefore an act of Catholic Faith but of human faith, based upon the fact that these revelations are probable and worthy of credence.

"St. John of the Cross asserts that the desire for revelations deprives faith of its purity, develops a dangerous curiosity that becomes a source of illusions, fills the mind with vain fancies, and often proves the want of humility, and of submission to Our Lord, Who, through His public revelation, has given all that is needed for salvation.

"We must suspect those apparitions that lack dignity or proper reserve, and above all, those that are ridiculous. This last charcteristic is a mark of human or diabolical machination." [/quote]

[the_rev]

I didn't say that you did, I was just saying Brendan only uses the quotations that support his claim, but don't give the full quote.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Brendan has certainly demonstrated that Medjugorje is not something anyone should be involved in.

[prose]

It sure would be nice if the Vatican could make a declaration about this once and for all.

I think it is a HUGE distraction sometimes because people are debating over something that could be clarified rather quickly.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Well, 2 Bishops of the area have spoken about the apparitions, and it's highly unlikely that if the Vatican clarified anything they would go against the Bishops.

What Brendan posted is the same stuff I've read... out of context or not, it seems rather ambiguous for something that Our Blessed Mother would be supporting... it's definitely concerning.

Besides, since this is recent, and coming from the Bishop, it needs to be regarded as such.

[brendan1104]

[quote name='the_rev' post='1017065' date='Jul 4 2006, 10:10 AM']
I didn't say that you did, I was just saying Brendan only uses the quotations that support his claim, but don't give the full quote.
[/quote]

Wrong, Eddie. I did give the full quotes.

[quote name='prose' post='1017068' date='Jul 4 2006, 10:14 AM']
It sure would be nice if the Vatican could make a declaration about this once and for all.

I think it is a HUGE distraction sometimes because people are debating over something that could be clarified rather quickly.
[/quote]

You see, Prose, the Vatican can't make a declaration on Medjugorje because the "apparitions" haven't concluded yet. That is the absurdity that is part of Medjugorje- the appparitions are of an unparalleled length- daily for 20+ years.

The following is a part of a bishop's conversation with the current Pope, last year:

Pope Benedict: [quote]"We at the Congregation [for the Doctrine of the Faith] always asked ourselves, how can any believer accept as authentic apparitions that occur every day and for so many years? Are they still occurring every day?"[/quote]

Bishop Peric: [quote]"Every day, Holy Father, to one of the [visionaries] in Boston, to another near Milan and still another in Krehin Gradac (Herzegovina), and everything is done under the protocol of 'apparitions of Medjugorje'. Up till now there have been about 35,000 'apparitions' and there is no end in sight!" [/quote]

So there's your answer Prose- until there are no more claims of "apparitions" the Vatican can't decide. This just shows the sad, powerful influence of the devil in our world.

Edited July 4, 2006 by brendan1104

[prose]

How is this a debate? I am glad it was posted here.

Sometimes I think things are thrown so quickly to the debate table that they can't just be discussed calmly.

Anyways. I had no idea that the Vatican couldn't make a declaration until the visions had stopped. To be honest, I have never really known a lot about Medjugorje with the exception of what my mother in law has told me. Is there more than one visionary there? If so, technically, when she pases away, it should end, right? Or have others seen the same visions?

[brendan1104]

[quote name='prose' post='1017090' date='Jul 4 2006, 10:54 AM']
Is there more than one visionary there? If so, technically, when she pases away, it should end, right? Or have others seen the same visions?
[/quote]

There's 5 or 6 visionaries, all in different parts of the world who travel extensively. One of them visits a cultish community in Birmingham every summer and plans an apparition. There's another proof of their falsehood- they know exactly when and where the Blessed Mother will appear, though she doesn't tell them so.

[prose]

Interesting.

So why can't the Vatican just put a stop to it? Even if they aren't done, if they are not true, why allow the faithful to continue to be mislead? Is it some sort of canon law?

I just read this:

[quote]There will a permanent, indestructable, supernatural sign left at the place of Our Lady's first apparition in Medjugorje on the hill Podbrdo at the conclusion of the apparitions.[/quote]

That would certainly clear things up eh? No sign, no truth. Is that perhaps what the Vatican is waiting for?

Also, are there any miracles (with the exception of personal ones) that have happened due to Medjugorje?

And, didn't JPII say something along the lines that the faithful are not risking their souls by following these apparitions?

[the_rev]

"All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."
CCC#836





JP2 expressed his desire in a Wednesday Audience to go to Medjugorje.

In addition Vatican Spokesman (Navarro, etc. no idea....) said there is no wrong in going to Medjugorje to seek conversion of heart.

[quote]Also, are there any miracles (with the exception of personal ones) that have happened due to Medjugorje?[/quote]

Beside the miracles of the sun occuring each day, there have been physical healings. And even a person who didn't go to Medjugorje but lived the messages, and prayed through her intercession was healed of MS.

Edited July 4, 2006 by the_rev

[the_rev]

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."

Strange how the report confirms many of the answers Brendan may be seeking. Yes, Medjugorje is divisive! But it is the Bishop himself who is the opponent, along with a few supporters. The so-called ‘schism’ is created by him and not the Franciscans or even the Church. If the Church felt at any time in 25 years that Medjugorje was truly schismatic then it would have taken steps by now to close it down.

What is strange to read is that both Popes have backed the Bishop’s judgement. Yet there has been no move for the Vatican to shut everything down. The truth is that both Popes have never backed the Bishop in his judgement. In fact the opposite. The matter was taken out of the Bishop’s jurisdiction by, guess who?, Cardinal Ratzinger!

Also true is that the Vatican has stated that any comment on Medjugorje by the bishop is purely his own opinion and not that of the Church, and that he should refrain from making such comments.

And then this report quotes the bishop as saying, “while recognizing the Holy Father's right to give a final decision”. This after earlier saying the Pope backed him!

Notice, too, how the bishops words are not definitive: ‘similar’ to a schism... while recognising the Holy Father’s right to give a final decision (on the validity)... they particularly do not seem to be authentic...

These are all back-covering, get-out clauses, just in the wind starts to blow the other way and the apparitions are accepted by the Church.

As to the reference that Medjugorje is not a shrine: In August 1993, Cardinal Kuharic, who headed the new commission after it was taken out of the hands of the local bishop, said: We bishops, after a three-year long commission study, accept Medjugorje as a holy place, AS A SHRINE. This means that we have nothing against it if someone venerates the Mother of God in a manner also in agreement with the teaching and belief of the Church. Therefore we are leaving this to further study. We are in no hurry.“

The Holy See’s press office also stated in 1996: “The Vatican permits pilgrimages to Medjugorje as long as they are not regarded as authentication of events still taking place, which still call for an examination by the Church. Neither has the Church suppressed discussion on Medjugorje.”

While the bishop accuses the faithful and many priests of being disobedient, he also should question his own stance when it comes to the matter of obedience.

I have no problem him expressing his own opinion. But it was a great pity that he expressed this opinion in such a way to make a personal attack on the visionaries during his Corpus Christi confrimation homily. By their fruits you shall know them. Read the entire homily here: [url="http://te-deum.blogspot.com/"]http://te-deum.blogspot.com/[/url]

The matter of Medjugorje is in the hands of Rome. No Pope has condemned it. I understand that the current Pope twice visited Medjugorje on a personal visit when a Cardinal.

It is unlikely that the Vatican will make any pronouncement until the apparitions are over. Perhaps they may even wait for the permanent sign. Then everything will speak for itself and there will be no doubt.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

No offense intended Eddie, but I think very dangerous to claim that the Bishop is causing schism. EVEN IF the Bishop were in the wrong, his office must still be respected and with it, the judgments he makes. This bishop, and the previous bishop have responded with concern regarding Medjugorje and thus so should the faithful. What cause has the Bishop given you for doubting his faithfulness to the Magisterium?

Miracles of the sun that occur everyday? I was in Medjugorje for a week and neither saw nor experience any such solar miracle.

(I don't think this belongs in the Debate Table, as we shouldn't be debating over a faithful Bishop's judgment)

Edited July 5, 2006 by Fides_et_Ratio

[brendan1104]

I'm going to finish this once and for all. What I've shown is how the Catholic Church- its Pope and one/two of the bishops have proven Medjugorje false. For a great book/site on Medjugorje by a now-deceased (September, 2004) indult traditional Catholic writer who until his death was friends with Cardinal Ratzinger- now Pope Benedict XVI- visit: [url="http://www.mdaviesonmedj.com"]http://www.mdaviesonmedj.com[/url]

1. Quoting the Catechism in your attempt to justify a personal sense of solemnly defined Catholic dogma- if the 'Madonna' of Medjugorje has spoken otherwise/one of the seers, was definitely wrong.

2. Joaquin Navarro-Valls (a known public liar to the press and I can prove this) who resigned last month, has no ecclesial authority- no theology studies, not a priest nor a bishop or a pope. Leaving his lay status aside, I agree with him. But there is nothing wrong with going [u]anywhere[/u] to seek conversion. But what about confession and Communion? Sacraments which the semi-schismatic Franciscan priests of St. James' parish have been known to reserve to only those who believe in the 'apparitions' of Medjugorje. The sacraments that the current Pope has urged to be given to anyone, regardless of their stance on these "visitations."

[quote]"We at the congregation felt that priests should be of service to those faithful who seek Confession and Holy Communion, leaving out the question of the authenticity of the apparitions."[/quote] - Pope Benedict XVI

3. Eddie, the devil too has been known to deceive through "healings" and seemingly "answering" prayers. These messages while good in emphasizing prayer, penance, and Marian devotion leading to Jesus are also schismatic and heretical in some cases, as I have proven in previous posts.

4. The Catechism also teaches that the Orthodox/protestants are also heretical- in denying papal primacy and universal authority, as well as the Filoque and in some places the Immaculate Conception. The protestants deny more, but you focused on the Orthodox, so do I.

5. The Bishop is the authority over/in the diocese - or 'Church' - Vatican II- of Medjugorje. He is the pope's representative, and a successor to the Apostles. His supporters are truly knowledgeable and faithful Catholics.

6. Again, and again I say this: the Church can't make a final, definite, public decision/statement until these 'apparitions' conclude. And as the Pope and the bishop agree. And, furthermore, one of the reasons the Pope doesn't believe in Medjugorje is because they have been so lengthy- in many places, many dates and times, etc.

[quote]"We at the Congregation [for the Doctrine of the Faith] always asked ourselves, how can any believer accept as authentic apparitions that occur every day and for so many years? Are they still occurring every day?" [/quote] - Pope Benedict

[quote]"Up till now there have been about 35,000 'apparitions' and there is no end in sight!"[/quote] - Bishop Peric.

7. Medjugorje is divisive because it is a false apparition/diabolical deceit. One of the marks of God and the Church is unity, whereas division is of the devil.

8. The Vatican can't shut Medjugorje down. It's a municipality with public property and private houses that the 'visions' have occured in/on.

9. Obviously our Holy Father has backed Bishop Peric, as can be seen in the report.

10. Show me the Vatican's statement that the bishop's opinion is only his own, and private, and that he should refrain from preaching and teaching and guiding the diocese- which is a bishop's duty!

11. Of course the pope has the final decision, which Bishop Peric will support him in, because they both know it is false, but a decision is still to be made- see above.

12. He used the words to mean almost or similar to a schism, because schism is very definitely defined in the CCL- Code of Canon Law. But in laymen's terms, let's call it a knowing separation from the Pope/Catholic hierarchy and teaching authority.

13. Of course pilgrimages to renowned Churches and sites are to be commended, as is Marian devotion. But, that doesn't mean that Medugorje is real or true. If people want to visit there because they feel that particular area inspires conversion or re-version, prayer and penance so be it. But what about Fatima and Lourdes? Approved, time-tested, visionaries-who-have-been-canonized/beatified sites. And exactly my point- the Vatican only permits pilgrimages to Medjugorje as long as people don't authenticate Medjugorje themselves, or claim that the Magisterium has approved/authenticated that site of false visions.

14. The bishop(s) have been and are perfectly obedient. They have the authority to jude, because they are the shepherds of Medjugorje/the surrounding area.

15. As for preaching at Confirmation/Corpus Christi, good! Excellent opportunities when the faithful are largely gathered. A wonderful chance to teach and to preach, especially by the local bishop.

16. Once again, the Vatican can't decide until these false seers give up their lies and claims. Pope Benedict may have visited Medjugorje out of curiosity/investigating. Obviously he's come to his own personal decision- both as head of the CDF and the Church. Our Lady is not appearing at Medjugorje or under the title of Our Lady of Peace to these 'visionaries' who now live all over the world. I understand that some of them have made some not-so-wise choices, as well. Why would Our Lord/Lady allow this, since they are Their 'instruments/'voices' in the world?

17. You're right on your final statement, too. There will be no more doubt, once the Vatican/Pope is allowed to publicly state and decree the truth: this was at least terrible lies and claims. It was a deceit of the devil; these 'visions' 'locutions' and 'apparitions' are false.

Edited July 5, 2006 by brendan1104

[the_rev]

edit by me for uncharitability, (if that's a word)

Edited July 5, 2006 by the_rev

[michaelorapronobis]

I believe Medjugorje is a work of Satan. Either that or an [i]extremely[/i] well-done hoax. Many supernatural events have happened there, but let us remember that God is not the only supernatural source of power. Satan can mock God and draw people away from Him by performing his own miracles. Most people don't even consider [i]that[/i] possibility.

I cannot believe that Our Lady is appearing at Medjugorje. Apart from the extremely unscriptural things she has been saying, things which contradict almost 2,000 years of Church Tradition, many dodgy things have happened there.
Compare the Medjugorje visionaries with the those whom the Church has recognised as seeing true visions of Our Lady - Bernadette Soubirous and Lucia dos Santos. Bernadette, in ecstacy, was unaware of a hatpin being stuck into her hand, but Medjugorje's Vicka must invent a preposterous story to explain her flinching when a French reporter made like he was going to poke her in the eyes. Bernadette and Lucia both entered convents and lived out their lives in obscurity, humbling themselves as nuns. The Medjugorje seers, on the other hand, have built mansions and one has married a beauty queen. Not one of them has entered a convent or monastery! Bernadette found that her brother had accepted a small toy from a pilgrim and, horrified at the prospect of gain, made him promise to return it. Imagine, if you can, Bernadette driving Ivan's BMW. It's hard, isn't it? Bernadette would never have exalted herself the way the Medjugorje seers have. The children of Fatima were never known to tell a lie; those of Medjugorje seem to specialize in it. Obedience characterized the behavior of Lucia, Bernadette, Mélanie Calvat... and, for that matter, Padre Pio. Disobedience is so rampant at Medjugorje that it could be called the predominant characteristic.

"Our Lady" prays with the "seers" at Medjugorje. However, she prays the "Our Father" with them. At Lourdes, Fatima and other approved apparitions, she did not do this. At Lourdes, the Blessed Mother prayed only the "Glory Be" in the Rosary with St. Bernadette. By praying "forgive us our trespasses" with the seers, whatever is appearing there is subtly denying the Immaculate Conception, for Our Lady [i]has[/i] no trespasses. It also denies the Assumption, for Holy Scripture states, "There shall not enter into it [heaven] any thing defiled" (Apocalypse 21:27).

There is also the case of the Franciscan priest Ivica Vego. He impregnated a nun and was suspended [i]a divinis.[/i] He then continued to celebrate Mass and spent time with his mistress. "Our Lady" at Medjugorje insists that Vego is innocent and the Bishop is wrong. Vego's prayer book is still sold at Medjugorje.

About the supposed 'fruits' of Medjugorje. I don't buy the claims of all the converts ... where are they all? If there were as many as they say it would be apparent. It's like the "New Springtime" John Paul II insisted we are in the middle of. Many of them are "on fire" for a while and then fall from the faith. And those who have come back to the Church and attending Mass again, what types of Masses are they attending? Mostly charismatic Masses overflowing with abuses. I think that this is a small trade-off for Satan. Satan is willing to tell the truth 95% of the time to deceive you by the other 5%. Has [i]any[/i] Medjugorje convert started to attend the Tridentine Mass, the true Mass of the Church?
Bishop Zanic wrote that "there have been mentioned 50 miraculous healings, then 150, 200, 300 and so on. Laurentin chose 56 dossiers and sent them to the Bureau medical de lourdes. Dr. Mangiapan responded in his Bulletin of April 1984 that these dossiers have no practical value" (1990 Statement). Not one healing has been authenticated. On the other hand, Visions on Demand points out that the injuries and deaths resulting when elderly and unwell pilgrims are urged to climb the mile-high, rock strewn Mount Krizevac remain unreported.

I think it's obvious that it's not the Blessed Mother of God who is appearing here. For more information see [url="http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/medjugorje.htm"]http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/medjugorje.htm[/url]