Eutychus Posted July 7, 2006 Posted July 7, 2006 Musings on Marian Apparitions.... I've always been fascinated with the phenomena of MARIAN APPARITIONS, and have this personal belief that "Mary" will appear one more time at Fatima { it/she/they promised seven appearances, and to date, there have been only six } and in some fashion announce to the astonished world, live and on TV, with billions watching, working hand in glove with the False Prophet the character posing as the final A/C is really the messiah, and vette a universal church, uniting the Muslims, New Agers, and many that claim to be Chrisitians, as the vehicle by which mankind will be saved... What got me thinking here again { dangerous, I know...} is the new book, QUEEN OF ALL/QUEEN of ROME/QUEEN of ISLAM, by Jim Tetlow, Roger Oakland, and Brad Meyers. For they confirm, or rather, seem to speculate in roughly the same directions that I have been speculating now for a few years. ANYWAY... And THIS IS THE TOPIC, it hit me like a ton of bricks this morning. IF, abortion is really the "Sacrament of Satan" his highest desire, his tool to ruin lives, the modern version of human sacrifice and Molech reborn... [b]AND.... "Apparition Mary" is supposedly the MOTHER image, the FEMALE kind side of the Quatrinity, as a WOMAN, and a MOTHER, why has the "Apparition Mary" NEVER, none of them, and there are thousands of them on record, EVER systematically ... CONDEMNED ABORTION, as one of the greatest sins of our time? Untold millions of babies are sacrificed on the altar of convience, and yet, not a PEEP on this horror, from the MOTHER GODDESS?[/b] I submit a hypothesis. That the apparition is a specific demon, or a team working together, using the credulity of the Marian movement folks, people unskilled in biblical warnings, and [u]the DEMON will condemn sin in general, but ABORTION, being the high mass of satanism, is NEVER going to be condemned specifically and clearly.[/u] Possilbe insights and proof, if any is really needed, that the "Marian Appariton's" are anything BUT the biblical Mary ... but rather that old dragon, appearing as an "Angel of Light" adopting a form, and a message, that SOUNDS authentic, but is cleverly and subtily packaged to twist and turn God's intended message, exactly as he did way back in the garden... CAN ANYONE provide a SPECIFIC QUOTE from ANY Marian Apparition that DIRECTLY CONDEMNS abortion? If there are I want to know, so I can correct what I think I've stumbled upon here.
homeschoolmom Posted July 7, 2006 Posted July 7, 2006 Didn't we already have a thread on this particular book? [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=54199"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=54199[/url]
Eutychus Posted July 7, 2006 Author Posted July 7, 2006 Yeah, I saw it, thought it was interesting, and got that book, reading it now as a matter of fact. However, the TOPIC isn't the contents of that book, however fascinating. The TOPIC is have any of the Motherly Mary Apparitions EVER specifically condemned ABORTION. Not alluded to it via general sin, but SPECIFICALLY named it as something she detested.
Fides_et_Ratio Posted July 7, 2006 Posted July 7, 2006 The most modern (approved) Marian apparition is Our Lady of All Nations--but even that's from the 1950s (but I haven't read all her messages yet). And pre Roe v. Wade, abortion was not nearly as rampant and accepted as it is today. I am almost positive that any modern authentic apparition would have an exhortation by Our Blessed Mother to pray for aborted souls, and for the women who abort their children.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted July 7, 2006 Posted July 7, 2006 "A house divided against itself cannot stand." Fatima, Lourdes, et al. are in line with the Gospel and preach a message of turning to Jesus and repenting from sin. Satan would not say such a thing so clearly. If he wanted to appear as Mary, I believe (in my humble opinion), that he would be much more wishy-washy, trying by emotional means to persuade the visionaries to be obedient to the apparition even over Mary, switching their loyalty, and getting them to fall from Jesus. Mary does not do this and Fatima and Lourdes are clear: we must turn to Jesus and follow His Church. As Fides et Ratio pointed out, the abortion issue wasn't nearly so big a deal during the last approved apparitions. Furthermore, it is a mercy to us that Mary should admonish us at all. Just because she doesn't mention a particular sin doesn't mean that she isn't a real apparition.
Era Might Posted July 7, 2006 Posted July 7, 2006 (edited) Mother Goddess? Our Lady didn't address the Holocaust either. I suppose the demons were hiding that too. Our Lady doesn't have to condemn abortion. Your "hypothesis" is absurd. If someone is a true son of Mary, and believes in her apparitions, he will also believe in the Church, and nobody has been more outspoken about abortion than the Church. Abortion is the last thing Catholics are confused about. And why would these "demons" stop at abortion? Lust is more common than abortion, yet Our Lady said at Fatima that more people go to hell for sins of the flesh than any other reason. She specified lust, not just "general sin". Edited July 7, 2006 by Era Might
jswranch Posted July 7, 2006 Posted July 7, 2006 [quote name='Eutychus' post='1019072' date='Jul 7 2006, 06:58 AM'] And THIS IS THE TOPIC, it hit me like a ton of bricks this morning. IF, abortion is really the "Sacrament of Satan" his highest desire, his tool to ruin lives, the modern version of human sacrifice and Molech reborn...[/quote] I am not sure where you are getting this. IMHO, the two biggest sins mentioned in the bible by the offender are (1) adam and eve eating the apple IOT be like God and (2) Judas betraying Christ. Abortion is not mentioned in the bible, though infanticide is. [quote]CAN ANYONE provide a SPECIFIC QUOTE from ANY Marian Apparition that DIRECTLY CONDEMNS abortion? If there are I want to know, so I can correct what I think I've stumbled upon here.[/quote] Not to my knowledge. However, some apparitions seem to address the issues of the time.
Lounge Daddy Posted July 7, 2006 Posted July 7, 2006 Why isn't it enough that The One True Church (The Catholic Church) actively teaches abortion as an abomination and a murderous sin? And this should be a primary point in this thread. And the Blessed Mother has never disputed this position of Her Son’s Church, The Catholic Church. This should be a secondary point. Where is the conflict? This opposing opinion all seems so silly to me. I love Mary, I love Her Son's Roman Catholic Church
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 7, 2006 Posted July 7, 2006 I just wanted to add that there was a condemned "apparition" refered to as "Our Lady of Bayside" in which "Our Lady" condemned abortion. The "message" exhibited radical traditionalism as well as a belief in the Rapture, and was condemned. They also sell rose petals supposedly blessed by Jesus. [url="http://www.catholicdoors.com/isit/isit08.htm"]http://www.catholicdoors.com/isit/isit08.htm[/url]
Eutychus Posted July 8, 2006 Author Posted July 8, 2006 So, let me get this right... The FAKE apparitions are denouncing abortion directly. The "REAL" apparitions are silent on it. Otay..... { you might want to really think on this one...}
Era Might Posted July 9, 2006 Posted July 9, 2006 Your whole premise is irrational. Marian apparitions lead people to the Catholic Church, to Christ, to a life of holiness and virtue. There's one thing Satan cannot do, and that is produce genuine fruit. Marian apparitions lead people to Catholicism, and by that very fact alone lead people to the culture of life and the fight against abortion (and all the other attacks against human dignity). If Satan's purpose in supposedly appearing as Our Lady is to lead people to remain silent against abortion, he's doing a pretty crummy job. In fact, there has been arguably no greater foe of abortion than Pope John Paul II, who also happened to be a great promoter of Our Lady's messages at Fatima.
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 9, 2006 Posted July 9, 2006 Our Lady calls us to Christ and His Church. Standing against abortion follows naturally. I do not see how not mentioning abortion means they are false. There are plenty of Biblical texts that don't mention it either.
Eutychus Posted July 9, 2006 Author Posted July 9, 2006 [quote] Your whole premise is irrational. Marian apparitions lead people to the Catholic Church, to Christ, to a life of holiness and virtue. There's one thing Satan cannot do, and that is produce genuine fruit. Marian apparitions lead people to Catholicism,[/quote] Some might question that starting premise, but then, THAT thought is not allowed now, is it? According to the latin American Bishops conference, last year those disagreeing with YOUR starting premise was 400 per hour, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. For those that may doubt this....and I know some will, here is the link [quote]According to recent statistics, in a region once considered a Catholic stronghold, protestants are growing at a rate of 400 per hour, which leads demographers to predict that Latin America will be evangelical before the end of the twenty-first century. 2 Cardinal Miguel Obando y Bravo from Nicaragua, addressing the Vatican College of Cardinals in 1991 pointed out that "protestants in Latin America have grown surprisingly, from 4 million in 1967 to 30 million in 1985." On his part, Cardinal Ernesto C. Ahumada from Mexico stated that in the last 30 years "defections from the Catholic church) to other religious groups have tripled in the Dominican Republic, have increased by 500% in El Salvador and Costa Rica, and have grown by 700% in Guatemala."3 No wonder an evangelical president was recently elected in this latter country. In general, it is estimated that 20% of all Latin Americans are Protestant.[/quote] [url="http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0246_Church__State_in_Con.html"]http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0246...ate_in_Con.html[/url] [url="http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=927"]http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=927[/url] Just to show that there are a LOT of Roman Catholics who are quite turned off by the Marianitis takeover of the church, especially evident in Latin America, and are seeking Jesus, and the Word, not the chruch, Mary, saints, and clerical overlordship of their very lives. But of course, that really IS in the eye of every beholder, isn't it? Best.
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 9, 2006 Posted July 9, 2006 Truth is not determined by the majority. Even if I take these statistics at face-value, it says nothing about Marian apparitions - which are not required to be believed by Catholics. They are considered "worthy of belief".
MissScripture Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 [quote name='Eutychus' post='1020614' date='Jul 9 2006, 04:25 PM'] Some might question that starting premise, but then, THAT thought is not allowed now, is it? According to the latin American Bishops conference, last year those disagreeing with YOUR starting premise was 400 per hour, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. For those that may doubt this....and I know some will, here is the link [url="http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0246_Church__State_in_Con.html"]http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0246...ate_in_Con.html[/url] [url="http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=927"]http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=927[/url] Just to show that there are a LOT of Roman Catholics who are quite turned off by the Marianitis takeover of the church, especially evident in Latin America, and are seeking Jesus, and the Word, not the chruch, Mary, saints, and clerical overlordship of their very lives. But of course, that really IS in the eye of every beholder, isn't it? Best. [/quote] Ok, did you even read that whole article? Because here it's saying the reason that the Catholics in Latin America aren't Catholic BECAUSE they don't have the things that connect them to Mary and the Saints. [quote]Catholic author Richard Rodriguez, puts it well: "My beloved Catholic Church has become an activist in the city, doing social work in plain clothes. Meanwhile Catholicism has deferred its rich prayer life - the rosaries, devotions, and novenas - to another age."6 In other words, the Catholic church became so involved with the state, and the social and political problems of Latin America that it lost its primary goal, the ministry of satisfying the spiritual needs of the people.[/quote]
Socrates Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Eutychus' post='1019072' date='Jul 7 2006, 06:58 AM'] Musings on Marian Apparitions.... I've always been fascinated with the phenomena of MARIAN APPARITIONS, and have this personal belief that "Mary" will appear one more time at Fatima { it/she/they promised seven appearances, and to date, there have been only six } and in some fashion announce to the astonished world, live and on TV, with billions watching, working hand in glove with the False Prophet the character posing as the final A/C is really the messiah, and vette a universal church, uniting the Muslims, New Agers, and many that claim to be Chrisitians, as the vehicle by which mankind will be saved... What got me thinking here again { dangerous, I know...} is the new book, QUEEN OF ALL/QUEEN of ROME/QUEEN of ISLAM, by Jim Tetlow, Roger Oakland, and Brad Meyers. For they confirm, or rather, seem to speculate in roughly the same directions that I have been speculating now for a few years. ANYWAY... And THIS IS THE TOPIC, it hit me like a ton of bricks this morning. IF, abortion is really the "Sacrament of Satan" his highest desire, his tool to ruin lives, the modern version of human sacrifice and Molech reborn... [b]AND.... "Apparition Mary" is supposedly the MOTHER image, the FEMALE kind side of the Quatrinity, as a WOMAN, and a MOTHER, why has the "Apparition Mary" NEVER, none of them, and there are thousands of them on record, EVER systematically ... CONDEMNED ABORTION, as one of the greatest sins of our time? Untold millions of babies are sacrificed on the altar of convience, and yet, not a PEEP on this horror, from the MOTHER GODDESS?[/b] I submit a hypothesis. That the apparition is a specific demon, or a team working together, using the credulity of the Marian movement folks, people unskilled in biblical warnings, and [u]the DEMON will condemn sin in general, but ABORTION, being the high mass of satanism, is NEVER going to be condemned specifically and clearly.[/u] Possilbe insights and proof, if any is really needed, that the "Marian Appariton's" are anything BUT the biblical Mary ... but rather that old dragon, appearing as an "Angel of Light" adopting a form, and a message, that SOUNDS authentic, but is cleverly and subtily packaged to twist and turn God's intended message, exactly as he did way back in the garden... CAN ANYONE provide a SPECIFIC QUOTE from ANY Marian Apparition that DIRECTLY CONDEMNS abortion? If there are I want to know, so I can correct what I think I've stumbled upon here. [/quote] No offense, but this is one of the silliest anti-Catholic "arguments" I've read. As others have pointed out, the approved apparitions all took place before abortion became legal, common, and accepted in society, particularly by Catholics. The apparitions at Fatima took place in 1917, when abortion was still almost universally considered an unspeakable crime. There would have been little point in specifically denouncing what was already considered by everyone in the civilized world a horrible crime. The apparitions at Lourdes and Guadalupe took place many years earlier. Did you think Our Lady would have to give a catalogue of each and every great sin and denounce them individually one-by-one? And your "personal beliefs" about what will supposedly happen at Fatima are of no account because this future scenario exists only in your own imagination. Furthermore, this argument is absurd because, as others here have also pointed out, the apparitions promote the Catholic Faith. And the Catholic Church has been the world's most consistant and strongest opponent of abortion and the Culture of Death in the world today! According to you, is the Catholic Church itself demonic, or just the Marian apparitions? If the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon, wouldn't she too, being controlled by Hell, NEVER specifically and clearly condemn abortion?? Why then does the Catholic Church continue to repeatedly clearly and consistantly condemn abortion? At least show some consistancy in your argumentation! And if you have had any real experience with Catholics involved in the Marian movement, you would very quickly realize how empty and silly your arguments are. Catholics devoted to Mary are some of the most anti-abortion, pro-life people you'll find anywhere. If Marian apparitions such as those in Fatima are demonic and do not oppose abortion, why are their devoted followers so opposed to abortion? Wouldn't a demon who approves of abortion instead lead to indifference and tolerance toward abortion, rather than pro-life fervor, from its followers? Edited July 10, 2006 by Socrates
Era Might Posted July 10, 2006 Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Eutychus' post='1020614' date='Jul 9 2006, 05:25 PM']Some might question that starting premise, but then, THAT thought is not allowed now, is it? According to the latin American Bishops conference, last year those disagreeing with YOUR starting premise was 400 per hour, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. For those that may doubt this....and I know some will, here is the link [url="http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0246_Church__State_in_Con.html"]http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0246...ate_in_Con.html[/url] [url="http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=927"]http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=927[/url] Just to show that there are a LOT of Roman Catholics who are quite turned off by the Marianitis takeover of the church, especially evident in Latin America, and are seeking Jesus, and the Word, not the chruch, Mary, saints, and clerical overlordship of their very lives. But of course, that really IS in the eye of every beholder, isn't it? Best. [/quote] Well, I guess the truth comes out. You see all this as an arm-wrestling contest to see how many souls you can pilfer. At least it saves me the trouble of responding to your threads any more. God bless. Edited July 10, 2006 by Era Might
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