Do you believe the Medjigoure "apparitions" to be

[prose]

I have one question about the sun miracles. I have seen videos on youtube about them and things... Why doesn't everyone see them that are there? Why only some? And why, if only some can see them, can they be videotaped and then everyone can see them? Seems strange.

I am not sure what to think. I appreciate Mary, but apparitions have little effect on my prayer and faith life.

[chelsea]

I dont have much time so i cant quote from posts right now but here's my .02 on medjugorje:

I have been there.
1. [b]Many people will say "it is condemned by the local bishop.[/b]" the local bishop has left the judgement up to the Church. He does not believe in Fatima or Lourdes, refuses to visit Medjurogje except for confirmations, and will not speak to the visionaries. He has not done an official investigation.
[url="http://medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no16"]http://medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no16[/url]

2. [b]It has never been recognized by the vatican. [/b] It cannot be recognized until it is over. John Paul II did not visit medjugorje because he felt that it would be "approving" something (whether officially or unofficially) that was not yet able to be proven. He had a personal and private devotion to Medjugorje.
[url="http://medjugorje.org/pope.htm"]http://medjugorje.org/pope.htm[/url]

3. [b]Our Lady said that all faith's are equal.[/b] [url="http://medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no20"]http://medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no20[/url]

4. [b]Some messages are kept secret.[/b] They will be revealed in due time. There are 10 secrets to Medjugorje, just as there were secrets to Fatima, which have all been revealed.

5. There have been scientific studies in Medjugorje, which prove that there are apparitions happening. [url="http://medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no11"]http://medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no11[/url]


Basically, I have been there, and it is an incredible place. I saw the sun dancing in the sky. I smelt roses in a place where roses cannot grow, at the hour of Our Lady's daily apparition. I was present for one of her apparitions when she gave her monthly message. If the Church decides that Medjugorje is false, then I will honor the Church. But until then, i do believe.

[dairygirl4u2c]

are you sure the sun was dancing, and not just blurry or something? i know someone who said they think it was dancing, but concede they're not really sure what they saw. could be they are overanalyzing their event. but you have to be cautious. incidentally, he did take a firmer position on the birds that sang on cue at her apparition time. (whgich would have to be trained orsomething to argue against)

[chelsea]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1383760' date='Sep 11 2007, 08:09 PM']are you sure the sun was dancing, and not just blurry or something? i know someone who said they think it was dancing, but concede they're not really sure what they saw. could be they are overanalyzing their event. but you have to be cautious. incidentally, he did take a firmer position on the birds that sang on cue at her apparition time. (whgich would have to be trained orsomething to argue against)[/quote]

I know what i saw, and i have it on video. I did not make it up. I am not overanalyzing the event.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='chelsea' post='1383759' date='Sep 11 2007, 06:07 PM']2. [b]It has never been recognized by the vatican. [/b] It cannot be recognized until it is over. John Paul II did not visit medjugorje because he felt that it would be "approving" something (whether officially or unofficially) that was not yet able to be proven. He had a personal and private devotion to Medjugorje.
[url="http://medjugorje.org/pope.htm"]http://medjugorje.org/pope.htm[/url]

3. [b]Our Lady said that all faith's are equal.[/b] [url="http://medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no20"]http://medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no20[/url][/quote]

Interesting. Thank you. More than enough of a confirmation for me.

[Jaime]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1383760' date='Sep 11 2007, 07:09 PM']are you sure the sun was dancing, and not just blurry or something? i know someone who said they think it was dancing, but concede they're not really sure what they saw. could be they are overanalyzing their event. but you have to be cautious. incidentally, he did take a firmer position on the birds that sang on cue at her apparition time. (whgich would have to be trained orsomething to argue against)[/quote]


Count me amongst those who have witnessed the sun dancing miracle. And yes I'm sure. I was able to stare directly at the sun for several minutes without squinting or tearing up. And I still have my retinas intact

[Laurentina1975]

[quote name='jezic' post='1019720' date='Jul 8 2006, 12:37 AM']demons cannot be divided against themselves. The apparitions have reignited the faith of millions.[/quote]


I love your faith....I added you as a friend. Hope you do not mind.

And I do believe....

[fides quarens intellectum]

irrelevant to my spiritual life, but get annoyed when Medjugorje enthusiasts credit/attribute things in other peoples' lives [especially my own!] to OL of Medjugorje: if they want to believe in something that Rome hasn't signed off on yet, i wish they'd keep it to themselves instead of pushing it on people who want to wait for the Church's official approval/disapproval. i think it is great if people are growing closer to Jesus due to visits to that area, but i wish they wouldn't in turn authoritatively proclaim and defend the visions as true without waiting for the Church.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Dismas' post='1383203' date='Sep 10 2007, 09:59 PM']I doubt that those apparitions are real. I also believe that they are not of direct satanic origin either. This is the work of humans being fallen humans, with some pious fraud mixed in. Time and time again, the Vatican has studied Medjugorje, finding [b]nothing supernatural[/b].

Is this Our Lady of Leponto, who beat back the invincible Turks in the hour of need? Is this Our Lady of Lourdes, whose shrine heals the sick to this very day? Is this the same Queen of Heaven that repelled the Swedish Deluge at Jasna Góra, broke the back of the Bolshevik army in Częstochowa in 1920, and made the Red Army tremble yet again when Pope John Paul returned?

Is this is the same Mary who visited St. Juan Diego? When he spoke to the bishop, and was dismissed, did Mary let him down? Did Mary tell him to foment an insurrection against the bishop?

No! She cleaved to the heart of that bishop with an unexpected sign he could not, would not deny.

I cannot see the apparitions of Medjugorje to be real.

P.S. I wonder how many miracles would be reported if the world converged around Walla Walla Washington, set up around the clock confessionals and hundreds of Masses a day. I think far more.[/quote]
Good points. I agree.

These silly and never-ending "apparitions" and their banal and inane "messages" are hogwash, though.

[Dismas]

I do not accept Medjugorje, and merely because a bishop does not accept Fatima or Lourdes does not alter his authority on the matter.

I also don't accept Garabandal, which shares the same unapproved and uncondemned status as Medjugorje, even if St. Padre Pio praised it.

As for miracles, I can drive 30 miles or so to the National Shrine and Basilica of St. Mary, Help of Christians with a penniless, crippled Catholic and pray the rosary together. At least that has a proven track record without the expensive plane tickets.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Dismas

[kateri05]

[quote]3. Our Lady said that all faith's are equal. [url="http://medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no20"]http://medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no20[/url][/quote]


is this a good thing?


i don't even think this is theologically true?


i'm not sure why its listed as support for hte apparition being real

[Lil Red]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1383819' date='Sep 11 2007, 06:57 PM']irrelevant to my spiritual life, but get annoyed when Medjugorje enthusiasts credit/attribute things in other peoples' lives [especially my own!] to OL of Medjugorje: if they want to believe in something that Rome hasn't signed off on yet, i wish they'd keep it to themselves instead of pushing it on people who want to wait for the Church's official approval/disapproval. i think it is great if people are growing closer to Jesus due to visits to that area, but i wish they wouldn't in turn authoritatively proclaim and defend the visions as true without waiting for the Church.[/quote]
well said

[Jaime]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1383900' date='Sep 11 2007, 10:29 PM']is this a good thing?
i don't even think this is theologically true?
i'm not sure why its listed as support for hte apparition being real [/quote]

It would have been helpful if it wasn't just the link that was listed but the answer.

[quote]There was a question asked of Our Lady in October 1981 which was: Are all religions the same? Our Lady answered: "[b]Members of all faiths are equal before God[/b]. God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom. In the world, all religions are not the same because all people have not complied with the commandments of God. They reject and disparage them."[/quote]

I don't find anything theologically unsound about that.

[XIX]

It's not saying that all faiths are equal, just that all people are equal. We are just as deserving of Hell and Protestants, Jews, even Satanists.

In fact, I had to read that whole quote about 5 times to really understand what she said. Mary usually is very clear in her apparitions. But regardless, the Church will speak eventually and...yeah I'll just go off of that. Medj. is pretty irrelevant to my spiritual life, so it's really not worth expensive plane tickets or hours of research.

[Apotheoun]

There is only one faith, and so other religions are not valid means to salvation.

That said, if a Muslim is saved, or if a Buddhist is saved for that matter, etc., it is in spite of his following the tenets of Islam or Buddhism, and not because of it. Invincible ignorance of the true faith is not a means to salvation, nor does it imply that non-Christian religions are salvific; instead, Christ alone is the savior of humanity, and all grace -- by definition -- flows from Him through the Church into the world.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1384027' date='Sep 12 2007, 02:39 AM']There is only one faith, and so other religions are not valid means to salvation.

That said, if a Muslim is saved, or if a Buddhist is saved for that matter, etc., it is in spite of his following the tenets of Islam or Buddhism, and not because of it. Invincible ignorance of the true faith is not a means to salvation, nor does it imply that non-Christian religions are salvific; instead, Christ alone is the savior of humanity, and all grace -- by definition -- flows from Him through the Church into the world.[/quote]

Very well said. I wish the council could have said it like you just did.

[goldenchild17]

I mean, at least I could understand it as saying that.

[ckozlowski]

Hey guys, I just want to say that I am also amongst those who have witnessed the sun miracle. I know that all of these occurrences around the world are very real. I thank God everyday that he showed me the truth. But what God has revealed to me, none of you will accept. I only pray to God that he will open your eyes as you listen to what I have to say. I pray to God that you will "test all things" 1 Thess. 5:21

Let me tell you a little bit about myself. I grew as an alter server, and eventually became a Eucharistic minister. I was strong in my Catholic faith. I went to confession regularly. But during my junior year of high school, I took a biology course that changed my life forever. My teacher presented me with the theory of evolution. After learning all about it, I was hell bent on squaring the account of creation in the book of Genesis with the scientific facts in my text book. I consulted my mother, my priest and the scientific facts.
One night, I walked to the beach, knelt down on the sand, looked up into the sky and poured my heart out to God. I told him that I could not believe in him anymore unless he showed me that he was real. I told him that I needed to see that he was real. I asked for a sign. This was my ultimatum to God.
I woke up to go to school the next morning, went to class and came back home. I had a doctor’s appointment after school, so I drove. My mom was in the passenger seat. On the way to the doctor's office, the sun started to dance and flicker. I looked over at my mother to see her expression but she acted as if she hadn't even noticed. I was in awe and counted myself grateful that God gave me what I asked for. My mother could not see it, she thought I was crazy.
She mentioned what I had said to her to my doctor and he lectured me. As I was walking outside of the doctor's office, I looked over at the church next door. There was a woman dressed as a woman would dress in the Hellenistic era. She was pacing back and fourth as if she was praying. My mother couldn't see her. I believed it was the Virgin Mary. My mom believed I was crazy. She gave me drugs to sleep at night and to this day I still can't figure out why she did that.
I tripled my rosaries and masses. Tripled my efforts with everything that I thought God wanted of me.
I eventually went off to college to study theology. I was determined to learn everything I could about God's plan and his miracles. Now, here I am sitting in my apartment at college, during my junior year writing to all of you. Since my biblical studies program has intensified, I have done extensive research on all of the apparitions, and the book of revelation. I wanted to learn everything about the Catechism and the Bible. When I started to delve into the study of scripture and the Catechism I have to admit, I became very scared. And today I'm here to tell all of you that you should be too. Now what I am about to say you will not agree with, but please, all I ask of you is that you do as the apostle Paul tells us to do and "Test all things" I just pray to God that you listen to the warnings of the apostles themselves.
According to historical records Pope Innocent 13th had a strange experience - the sun danced in the Vatican gardens (as it was put). At the end of this remarkable week the Pope had a revelation, as he believed, and consequently proclaimed that Mary had been 'Assumed' into heaven. This is the belief that Mary was taken bodily into heaven, in the same way as Moses had been centuries before, as a special dispensation for bearing the Son of God.
Mary once told us: "Here you see hell, where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart... Pray, pray a great deal and make sacrifices for sinners. So many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray and sacrifice for them.”
But God also told us: “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.” Hbr 10:12
The bible says “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all.” (1 Timothy 2:5-6) But we have Mary saying that she is also the mediator, how can this be?
If we look to our Bible in the book of Matthew it says, “false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.” Matthew 24:24 One must never underestimate the craftiness of the devil, he will appear “as an angel of light”
The term “elect” in theology means those who are chosen by God. So, if it is possible for those who are chosen by God to be deceived, then we have to look deeper. Why? Because this means that even the pope can be deceived.
Lets look to the book of Timothy, “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.” 2 Timothy 4:2-3 Here it is clearly stating that a time will come when people will no longer endure sound doctrine.
Listen to a verse from the book of Revelation, “I will show you the great judgment who sits on many waters. The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and toungs…Come out of her my people..lest you share in her sins…for she says in her heart “I sit as queen” Revelation 7:21, 15; 18:4 7
The Bible says that Satan can perform miracles too. The bible says that an angel of light will come to deceive many. The apostles tell us the only protection we have against deception is the word of God. “Test all things”

Okay, so what am I proposing? I’m saying that the whole message of the gospel is the message of salvation through faith, not the works of the law. But Mary is urging us to sacrifice for sinners, and the bible says that we can’t do that because Jesus paid the price, he was the sacrifice. Paul urges the Gentiles and Corinthians that we cannot rely on works. Jesus did away with them. That’s what he died for. If we don’t rely solely on Jesus’ sacrifice, but on our own works, we are not saved. Her message negates the whole purpose of the price Jesus paid for us. Thus taking away our salvation. That’s all the devil wants. That’s all he needs. He can also tell you “pray pray pray” and sacrifice for sinners”
If you read the Bible, you will find out that there is a passage where a person in a crowd around Jesus says “blessed is the womb that bore you” but Jesus says, but rather, blessed is he who hears the word of God and keeps it.”
In John’s epistles and the book of Revelation, he made it clear that many people would come along in the spirit of antichrist in the end of days. The spirit of the antichrist I believe, is the worship of Mary. We have cultic masses who worship her. God says “you shall have no other gods before me” But there will come a day when one world leader will rise to power who will be the embodiment of evil, one who is empowered and directed by the devil himself. This will be the Antichrist. Until then Satan will pull his strings, deceiving and confusing as many as possible. He didn’t convince me, I’ll trust in Jesus. God has revealed this to me so that I could reveal it to you. God knew I would proclaim to the world the truth of salvation that comes through trust in the sacrifice of himself.

So please, if your Catholic and you don’t read your bible often, I encourage you to. I write this letter because it is Gods will. I take this time because I care for all of you because I was once one of you. If you are not convinced, please look into this or at least bear it in mind as this demon posed as the blessed Mary deceives the nations. Study the scriptures, I promise those of you who are God’s, you will break free from the bonds of idolatry. Those of you who don’t, then you never were God’s in the first place. I end this rendition that kept me up all night to write with a quote, “my people are destroyed because they do not know me” Hosea 4:6 Please take the time to know God, read your bibles.

[chelsea]

woah woah woah, let me make sure I understand. You think you saw Mary, but since all apparitions of her are demons, you saw a demon pretending to be Mary?

I'm not sure I follow.

I dont have time to respond to the rest of your post right now, but i will later.

For the record, we do not have cult-like masses to worship Our Blessed Mother. We ask Mama to pray for us!

[prose]

What Masses are you going to that they worship Mary? I have never been to a Mass that worshiped Mary. I HAVE been to Masses that ask Mary to pray for us.