Catholics living like Atheists

[Akalyte]

I have a hard time understanding this.. I know Catholics who go to church every sunday, but they refuse to let the Church and Church teachings influence their lives.

They do however let politics influence their lives and they impose their politics upon their own faith! From what I understand this is a american tradition in many Catholic families. How in the world did we come to this?

This is the same kind of situation where we are told "no talking religion or politics". Why should they be Catholics or call themselves catholics at all if in actuality they are really living like atheists? How do you get through to these kind of people?

[Era Might]

I was reading an account of the Crusades recently, about one of the laymen who were leading a battle. They were getting ready for a huge battle, the Pope had given his approval, save the faith, the whole nine yards. The night before the battle, the layman spent with his mistress. This the same man who was going out in the name of God to defend the Church.

Sinners abound in Christian history.

[scardella]

Follow the tradition of St. Louis de Montfort. Smack them around a little bit.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1031107' date='Jul 26 2006, 08:50 AM']
I was reading an account of the Crusades recently, about one of the laymen who were leading a battle. They were getting ready for a huge battle, the Pope had given his approval, save the faith, the whole nine yards. The night before the battle, the layman spent with his mistress. This the same man who was going out in the name of God to defend the Church.

Sinners abound in Christian history.
[/quote]

well yeah of course. I dont condemn sinners! I'm just wondering how they get to this way of thinking! Its quite confusing.

I dont understand how one can go to mass every sunday, yet act as if its just a hour of nothing. After I go to Mass, I leave thinking and believing that Christ is enthroned in my heart.

I try my best to live the rest of the week thinking and believing Christ is there, and I let that influence my life.

These people reject the notion and act like their politics are more important. I've tried to debate, but they shut me up with anger.

Edited July 26, 2006 by Akalyte

[Era Might]

I don't think it's anything particularly unique to the United States. St. John of the Cross talked about how the people of his day had huge festivals for God where the devil received the most honor (through drunkeness and what not). I think it's the same crisis of holiness that plagues the laity in every generation. There is not the desire to be a Saint, and it shows. In America, it shows through American politics, but politics have always been a bad influence on the local Churches. Catholic laity in the past had no problem singing the "Te Deum" in one breath and calling for the mob beating of a Jew in the other. We need more St. John Vianney's to reform individual parishes.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1031119' date='Jul 26 2006, 08:59 AM']
I don't think it's anything particularly unique to the United States. St. John of the Cross talked about how the people of his day had huge festivals for God where the devil received the most honor (through drunkeness and what not). I think it's the same crisis of holiness that plagues the laity in every generation. There is not the desire to be a Saint, and it shows. In America, it shows through American politics, but politics have always been a bad influence on the local Churches. Catholic laity in the past had no problem singing the "Te Deum" in one breath and calling for the mob beating of a Jew in the other. We need more St. John Vianney's to reform individual parishes.
[/quote]

aint that the truth! Thanks for the Responses.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1031104' date='Jul 26 2006, 08:47 AM']
I have a hard time understanding this.. I know Catholics who go to church every sunday, but they refuse to let the Church and Church teachings influence their lives.

They do however let politics influence their lives and they impose their politics upon their own faith! From what I understand this is a american tradition in many Catholic families. How in the world did we come to this?

This is the same kind of situation where we are told "no talking religion or politics". Why should they be Catholics or call themselves catholics at all if in actuality they are really living like atheists? How do you get through to these kind of people?
[/quote]


This is especially pervasive in the NE and in Congress....
Sad thing too....methinks there might be more Catholics in Hell than Protestants.

Part of the imposition of politics on religion comes from the WASP heritage since the founding of the USA. Our forefathers were tired of the religious bickering in Europe, especially in England. They made sure to set up the Constitution to prevent this by abolishing a state/national religion. As such, the USA has gradually secularized (accelerating this trend to the extreme since the 1960's) to a point where government and hence the peeps think that politics should be used as a tool to influence religion. How many Catholics remember that it is their duty to do the reverse? We should be using our faith as a guide to infulence the political situation in the country....

BTW- there is NO SUCH THING AS "SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE" in the Constitution...this was manufactured by liberal activist judges, aka Pawns of Satan.

How do you get through to them? Follow the example Paul sets: speak with them privately and re-catechise them on thier responsibilities. God does NOT teach us not to judge, but rather warns us to not be hypocrites and be guilty of the same offenses. Next - take it to the church or the priest, etc. If it fails - shun them until they repent. Or...you can skip to the fine print of step 4 and whack em over the head with a 2x4...

Seriously, if the one pointing out their faith shortcomings is an upstanding Catholic who they respect, the seeds will be planted in thier conscience...Let the Holy Spirit doe the rest...support 'em with prayer.

[DAF]

Yeah, it is a shame. You know Catholicism is, by numbers, the biggest religion in the world (followed by islam), but I don't think that's true. I think Catholicism is actually much smaller if we separated the Catholic Catholics from the Catholic on paper Catholics.

It seems to be a running trend to sacrifice your Christian heritage for patriotism. We've become Americans first and Catholics when it's convenient. It's a real shame.

[Lahecil]

I think that any religion one chooses should not only be followed, but lived. It's not just something you do on Sunday mornings (or on the full moons ) but a lifestyle.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1031179' date='Jul 26 2006, 11:00 AM']
I think that any religion one chooses should not only be followed, but lived. It's not just something you do on Sunday mornings (or on the full moons ) but a lifestyle.
[/quote]
I hear that. To go about it any other way makes no sense to me.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1031179' date='Jul 26 2006, 10:00 AM']
I think that any religion one chooses should not only be followed, but lived. It's not just something you do on Sunday mornings (or on the full moons ) but a lifestyle.
[/quote]


Aye - religion is supposed to be a way of LIFE (ie living it), not a label or a title....

Someone wise once said "Faith without works is dead.." Hmm..wonder who that was again?

'Works" can just be simply living your life according to Christ with the guidance of the Church...in EVERYTHING you do.

[Socrates]

[quote name='DAF' post='1031172' date='Jul 26 2006, 08:44 AM']
It seems to be a running trend to sacrifice your Christian heritage for patriotism. We've become Americans first and Catholics when it's convenient. It's a real shame.
[/quote]
I don't think the primary problem in most cases is an excess of patriotism.
Patriotism (properly understood) is not incompatable with the Catholic religion, and is indeed considered a virtue.
Some may have a problem with false or exaggerated patriotism (putting one's country over one's faith - "America right or wrong"), but this was more prevalent 100 years ago than it is now.

The problem seems to be more a devotion to liberalism than to America per se. Polls have repeatedly shown that relgious people as a whole tend to be more patriotic than their secular counterparts. And the liberals who are insisting on voting pro-abortion, supporting "gay marriage", and the like, also are more likely to be those who think flag-burning is a wonderful form of free expression, or who tend to consider themselves "world-citizens" more than "Americans." They also for the most part have no problems with bashing President Bush, etc., so its a little hard to accuse them of blind devotion to the American leadership.
I realize there are exceptions both ways, but overall those liberals opposing "religious values" influencing politics don't tend to be any more patriotic than their conservative, religious brethren.

I'd say the problem is more liberalism than patriotism.

[Justified Saint]

An excess of patriotism is often called nationalism which according to some thinkers (like John Lukacs) is the single most dominating fundamentalism of the 20th century. And this would still seem to be the case since we live less in a "globalized" world than an "Americanized" one. On a practical level, globalism, Americanism, and liberalism might as well be synonyms.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1031571' date='Jul 26 2006, 07:40 PM']
An excess of patriotism is often called nationalism which according to some thinkers (like John Lukacs) is the single most dominating fundamentalism of the 20th century. And this would still seem to be the case since we live less in a "globalized" world than an "Americanized" one. On a practical level, globalism, Americanism, and liberalism might as well be synonyms.
[/quote]
I wouldn't quite say globalism, Americanism and liberalism are synonymous. I guess it all depends on how these terms are defined.
My main point was that the American "Catholics" pushing things like pro-abortion politics and the like are more likely to be primarily liberal than primarily patriotic (or even "nationalistic") in their outlook. And generally speaking, religious pro-life conservatives tend to, on average, consider themselves more patriotic than their secular liberal brethren.

And when I was speaking of "globalism," I was talking about liberals who want America to be more under the power of the U.N. and other international bodies than to operate as a sovereign power.
Of course, the Bush administration seems to be pursuing a kind of Americanistic globalism, but that becomes another debate . . .

Of course, I think the whole Kennedy "not let my Faith influence my politics" attitude has played a strong part in bringing about this secularist attitude among Catholics.

Edited July 27, 2006 by Socrates

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1031591' date='Jul 26 2006, 07:14 PM']
I wouldn't quite say globalism, Americanism and liberalism are synonymous. I guess it all depends on how these terms are defined.
My main point was that the American "Catholics" pushing things like pro-abortion politics and the like are more likely to be primarily liberal than primarily patriotic (or even "nationalistic") in their outlook. And generally speaking, religious pro-life conservatives tend to, on average, consider themselves more patriotic than their secular liberal brethren.

And when I was speaking of "globalism," I was talking about liberals who want America to be more under the power of the U.N. and other international bodies than to operate as a sovereign power.
Of course, the Bush adminsitration seems to be pursuing a kind of Americanistic globalism, but that becomes another debate . . .

Of course, I think the whole Kennedy "not let my Faith influence my politics" attitude has played a strong part in bringing about this secularist attitude among Catholics.
[/quote]

That is a fair assessment, though I think DAF is accurate in the observation that we tend to think of ourselves first as Americans and only as Catholics secondly -- which I think we would both agree is not a genuine sentiment of patriotism (though I would call it nationalist). It would be a delusion (of a liberal?) to think they could divest themselves of their own nationalist tendencies and prejudices, even if they think they are free of them which is exactly why it is more appropriate to speak of the Americanization of the world instead of its globalization. For example, as Lukacs would point out, the U.N. is so thoroughly an American ideal and institution (after all it's headquarters are located in New York) that it is almost silly to speak of the U.N. as an international force vis-a-vis American sovereignty.

Of course, historically speaking nationalism and secularism are close relatives.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1031632' date='Jul 26 2006, 09:01 PM']
That is a fair assessment, though I think DAF is accurate in the observation that we tend to think of ourselves first as Americans and only as Catholics secondly -- which I think we would both agree is not a genuine sentiment of patriotism (though I would call it nationalist). It would be a delusion (of a liberal?) to think they could divest themselves of their own nationalist tendencies and prejudices, even if they think they are free of them which is exactly why it is more appropriate to speak of the Americanization of the world instead of its globalization. For example, as Lukacs would point out, the U.N. is so thoroughly an American ideal and institution (after all it's headquarters are located in New York) that it is almost silly to speak of the U.N. as an international force vis-a-vis American sovereignty.

Of course, historically speaking nationalism and secularism are close relatives.
[/quote]
The trouble with this assessment is that the U.N. and the U.S. are sometimes at odds.
For instance, should the U.S. be governed by its own Constitution and people, or should it be subject to U.N. laws and resolutions? There was actually a case recently, concerning federal judges basing their rulings on U.N. laws, over that of the Constitution (unfortunately, I forget what the case was about.)
Many patriotic Americans want the U.S. out of the U.N. altogether. (I'm one of them.)
While the U.N.'s power is indeed largely what the U.S. gives it, it would not really be accurate to consider the U.N. to represent the "will of the U.S."

And what would you say about "America First" conservatives like Pat Buchanan (also a devout Traditional Catholic), who oppose globalization, believing it to be at the expense of America? Are they patriotic? Unpatriotic?

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1031660' date='Jul 26 2006, 08:20 PM']
The trouble with this assessment is that the U.N. and the U.S. are sometimes at odds.
For instance, should the U.S. be governed by its own Constitution and people, or should it be subject to U.N. laws and resolutions? There was actually a case recently, concerning federal judges basing their rulings on U.N. laws, over that of the Constitution (unfortunately, I forget what the case was about.)
Many patriotic Americans want the U.S. out of the U.N. altogether. (I'm one of them.)
While the U.N.'s power is indeed largely what the U.S. gives it, it would not really be accurate to consider the U.N. to represent the "will of the U.S."

And what would you say about "America First" conservatives like Pat Buchanan (also a devout Traditional Catholic), who oppose globalization, believing it to be at the expense of America? Are they patriotic? Unpatriotic?
[/quote]

Yes, I would definitely stop well short of saying that the U.N. represents the "will of the U.S." (though we would much desire for the U.N. to be more on "our side"). Yet, the U.S. is notorious for losing control over its creations. Thus I don't think that being at odds rules out the fact that the U.N. is a rather American institution (again, its basically a makeover of the League of Nations which was Wilson's brilliant idea <sarcasm>).

As far as Buchanan, the jury is still out on that one though I tend to be suspicious of ultra-conservatives like him. However, I find it persuasive that globalization is not in the best interest of America (notwithstanding the fact that globalization is a kind of "life line" for Americanism).

[the 13th papist]

The separation of state and religion is indeed absent from the constitution. but is found in the writings of (I believe) Thomas Jefferson.

Its difficult (to quote a proffessor).

The Truth is what these people need. How to give these people the Truth is the hard part. Akalyte, you are doing a good job with your sick beats (track number 2 is sick). Throwing the book at a lukewarm Catholic is going to make him run, but giving the same person anything less than the Truth is a waste of time. I find myself in this same predicament at a lukewarm liberal church where i am the assistant youth minister. I want so badly to change the hearts of these teens, to show them the Truth, but preaching wont do it. They will not find God in camands and decrees if they are blind to the love that is behind them. We must show them that love. We, us, must be a mirror of the light of Christ and shine his Truth to all those around us.

What does that mean in the hear and now, in a political and secular society. Stand up for what we believe, be strong, and do all things with and through love. The Lord will give them hearts not of stone, but of flesh.

We also need to tone down the nomenclature. I am a big apologetics fan, but all the other Christian religions are kinda just Catholic wannabes. The search for the Truth, they just dont know its fullest form is in Christ's one True Church. So the problem is just getting Catholics to be Catholics, but to get Catholics to at least be christian then going from there.

America first? How about people first? I have no problem with takeing care of our own but we gotta count the cost to others and humanity in general. Nationalism is an "ism". Nationalism is the making of a nation into a god and we know what the cammandments say about that.

"America, right or wrong"- when i read that in a textbook i seriously wanted to vomit all over myself.



God bless brothers and sisters,

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle...

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1031104' date='Jul 26 2006, 09:47 AM']
I have a hard time understanding this.. I know Catholics who go to church every sunday, but they refuse to let the Church and Church teachings influence their lives.

They do however let politics influence their lives and they impose their politics upon their own faith! From what I understand this is a american tradition in many Catholic families. How in the world did we come to this?

This is the same kind of situation where we are told "no talking religion or politics". Why should they be Catholics or call themselves catholics at all if in actuality they are really living like atheists? How do you get through to these kind of people?
[/quote]
I asked a priest this question years ago, and he asked me to think about what kind of people they would be if they didn't go to church at all.
We have no accounting of the work of grace in other peoples lives. People might not act like the catholics we expect them to be, but at least they are THERE and hearing the Word of God.
That is a start.
Always work and be a good example like it all depends on you,
and always pray because it all depends on God.

[XIX]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1031846' date='Jul 27 2006, 07:04 AM']
I asked a priest this question years ago, and he asked me to think about what kind of people they would be if they didn't go to church at all.
We have no accounting of the work of grace in other peoples lives. People might not act like the catholics we expect them to be, but at least they are THERE and hearing the Word of God.
That is a start.
Always work and be a good example like it all depends on you,
and always pray because it all depends on God.
[/quote]
Very very smart