Catholics living like Atheists

[Socrates]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1031632' date='Jul 26 2006, 09:01 PM']
That is a fair assessment, though I think DAF is accurate in the observation that we tend to think of ourselves first as Americans and only as Catholics secondly -- which I think we would both agree is not a genuine sentiment of patriotism (though I would call it nationalist). It would be a delusion (of a liberal?) to think they could divest themselves of their own nationalist tendencies and prejudices, even if they think they are free of them which is exactly why it is more appropriate to speak of the Americanization of the world instead of its globalization. For example, as Lukacs would point out, the U.N. is so thoroughly an American ideal and institution (after all it's headquarters are located in New York) that it is almost silly to speak of the U.N. as an international force vis-a-vis American sovereignty.

Of course, historically speaking nationalism and secularism are close relatives.
[/quote]
The trouble with this assessment is that the U.N. and the U.S. are sometimes at odds.
For instance, should the U.S. be governed by its own Constitution and people, or should it be subject to U.N. laws and resolutions? There was actually a case recently, concerning federal judges basing their rulings on U.N. laws, over that of the Constitution (unfortunately, I forget what the case was about.)
Many patriotic Americans want the U.S. out of the U.N. altogether. (I'm one of them.)
While the U.N.'s power is indeed largely what the U.S. gives it, it would not really be accurate to consider the U.N. to represent the "will of the U.S."

And what would you say about "America First" conservatives like Pat Buchanan (also a devout Traditional Catholic), who oppose globalization, believing it to be at the expense of America? Are they patriotic? Unpatriotic?

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1031660' date='Jul 26 2006, 08:20 PM']
The trouble with this assessment is that the U.N. and the U.S. are sometimes at odds.
For instance, should the U.S. be governed by its own Constitution and people, or should it be subject to U.N. laws and resolutions? There was actually a case recently, concerning federal judges basing their rulings on U.N. laws, over that of the Constitution (unfortunately, I forget what the case was about.)
Many patriotic Americans want the U.S. out of the U.N. altogether. (I'm one of them.)
While the U.N.'s power is indeed largely what the U.S. gives it, it would not really be accurate to consider the U.N. to represent the "will of the U.S."

And what would you say about "America First" conservatives like Pat Buchanan (also a devout Traditional Catholic), who oppose globalization, believing it to be at the expense of America? Are they patriotic? Unpatriotic?
[/quote]

Yes, I would definitely stop well short of saying that the U.N. represents the "will of the U.S." (though we would much desire for the U.N. to be more on "our side"). Yet, the U.S. is notorious for losing control over its creations. Thus I don't think that being at odds rules out the fact that the U.N. is a rather American institution (again, its basically a makeover of the League of Nations which was Wilson's brilliant idea <sarcasm>).

As far as Buchanan, the jury is still out on that one though I tend to be suspicious of ultra-conservatives like him. However, I find it persuasive that globalization is not in the best interest of America (notwithstanding the fact that globalization is a kind of "life line" for Americanism).

[the 13th papist]

The separation of state and religion is indeed absent from the constitution. but is found in the writings of (I believe) Thomas Jefferson.

Its difficult (to quote a proffessor).

The Truth is what these people need. How to give these people the Truth is the hard part. Akalyte, you are doing a good job with your sick beats (track number 2 is sick). Throwing the book at a lukewarm Catholic is going to make him run, but giving the same person anything less than the Truth is a waste of time. I find myself in this same predicament at a lukewarm liberal church where i am the assistant youth minister. I want so badly to change the hearts of these teens, to show them the Truth, but preaching wont do it. They will not find God in camands and decrees if they are blind to the love that is behind them. We must show them that love. We, us, must be a mirror of the light of Christ and shine his Truth to all those around us.

What does that mean in the hear and now, in a political and secular society. Stand up for what we believe, be strong, and do all things with and through love. The Lord will give them hearts not of stone, but of flesh.

We also need to tone down the nomenclature. I am a big apologetics fan, but all the other Christian religions are kinda just Catholic wannabes. The search for the Truth, they just dont know its fullest form is in Christ's one True Church. So the problem is just getting Catholics to be Catholics, but to get Catholics to at least be christian then going from there.

America first? How about people first? I have no problem with takeing care of our own but we gotta count the cost to others and humanity in general. Nationalism is an "ism". Nationalism is the making of a nation into a god and we know what the cammandments say about that.

"America, right or wrong"- when i read that in a textbook i seriously wanted to vomit all over myself.



God bless brothers and sisters,

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle...

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1031104' date='Jul 26 2006, 09:47 AM']
I have a hard time understanding this.. I know Catholics who go to church every sunday, but they refuse to let the Church and Church teachings influence their lives.

They do however let politics influence their lives and they impose their politics upon their own faith! From what I understand this is a american tradition in many Catholic families. How in the world did we come to this?

This is the same kind of situation where we are told "no talking religion or politics". Why should they be Catholics or call themselves catholics at all if in actuality they are really living like atheists? How do you get through to these kind of people?
[/quote]
I asked a priest this question years ago, and he asked me to think about what kind of people they would be if they didn't go to church at all.
We have no accounting of the work of grace in other peoples lives. People might not act like the catholics we expect them to be, but at least they are THERE and hearing the Word of God.
That is a start.
Always work and be a good example like it all depends on you,
and always pray because it all depends on God.

[XIX]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1031846' date='Jul 27 2006, 07:04 AM']
I asked a priest this question years ago, and he asked me to think about what kind of people they would be if they didn't go to church at all.
We have no accounting of the work of grace in other peoples lives. People might not act like the catholics we expect them to be, but at least they are THERE and hearing the Word of God.
That is a start.
Always work and be a good example like it all depends on you,
and always pray because it all depends on God.
[/quote]
Very very smart

[ilovechrist]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1031846' date='Jul 27 2006, 07:04 AM']
I asked a priest this question years ago, and he asked me to think about what kind of people they would be if they didn't go to church at all.
We have no accounting of the work of grace in other peoples lives. People might not act like the catholics we expect them to be, but at least they are THERE and hearing the Word of God.
That is a start.
Always work and be a good example like it all depends on you,
and always pray because it all depends on God.
[/quote]

at the same time, when i am at Mass and observing, though people might have made the one hour "sacrifice" to be there--they aren't paying attention at all to the Word of God, but rather going through all the motions and leaving as soon as they grab coffee and a donut after the priest says the final blessing.

why is this happening? i don't know. but i also know that we all have the potential to do that on a Sunday (no matter how strong you think you are in your faith), with one reason being because of how stressful living here in America has become.

i should know, for i have noticed that i myself have fallen into this habit once or twice without even realizing it until after the fact. it's a horrible feeling to know you have ignored God in concentrating on your own life...

[scardella]

Maybe I should've said "Knock the hell out of them"...

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='ilovechrist' post='1031879' date='Jul 27 2006, 10:00 AM']
at the same time, when i am at Mass and observing, though people might have made the one hour "sacrifice" to be there--they aren't paying attention at all to the Word of God, but rather going through all the motions and leaving as soon as they grab coffee and a donut after the priest says the final blessing.

why is this happening? i don't know. but i also know that we all have the potential to do that on a Sunday (no matter how strong you think you are in your faith), with one reason being because of how stressful living here in America has become.

i should know, for i have noticed that i myself have fallen into this habit once or twice without even realizing it until after the fact. it's a horrible feeling to know you have ignored God in concentrating on your own life...
[/quote]
This is nothing new. People actually pay more attention now, at least the Mass is in English. I remember when I was little people actually falling asleep at Mass.
But you cannot judge the hearts of these people, you have no clue how much attention they are actually paying, or what effect the Holy Spirit is having on their hearts.
Set a good example and let God take care of the rest of the congregation.

[Jaime]

Amen Cmom!!

This kind of lament is really saying "why can't others be as Catholic as me?" That will neither help them in their journey or help me in mine.

Cmom's got the best words here.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1031680' date='Jul 26 2006, 09:37 PM']
As far as Buchanan, the jury is still out on that one though I tend to be suspicious of ultra-conservatives like him. However, I find it persuasive that globalization is not in the best interest of America (notwithstanding the fact that globalization is a kind of "life line" for Americanism).
[/quote]
Is there a reason you "tend to be suspicious of ultra-conservatives like him"? Or is it simply because you consider him "ultra-conservative"? I've noticed that a lot of people tend to dismiss people's ideas as "extremist" or "ultra-conservative," rather than actually engage their ideas themselves.

[quote name='the 13th papist' post='1031705' date='Jul 26 2006, 09:48 PM']
The separation of state and religion is indeed absent from the constitution. but is found in the writings of (I believe) Thomas Jefferson.[/quote]
That writing of Thomas Jefferson has no bearing on the law of this country. Only the Constitution does. We cannot base the law on the private writings of individual framers (who often had varying opinions on various matters).

[quote]America first? How about people first? I have no problem with takeing care of our own but we gotta count the cost to others and humanity in general. Nationalism is an "ism". Nationalism is the making of a nation into a god and we know what the cammandments say about that.[/quote]
Do you even have any idea what "America First" refers to?
Basically, it is the philosophy that this country should protect the interests of its own citizens, rather than be dominated by multi-national corporate interests.
This would focus on America producing its own goods whenever possible, and thus becoming more self-sufficient and protecting the jobs of American workers.
Today, we largely buy things from China and other foreign countries, and have incurred a huge trade defecit in the process. These goods are often produced in slave-labor conditions.
In the meantime, American workers are laid off, and without an American base of production, the economy is weak and vulnerable.
Corporations increasingly outsource to foreign countries to save money.

Globalism does not truly benefit "people," but mostly benefits mega-rich multi-national corporations and international beaurocracies, and helps enrich potentially hostile governments like that of China.

And it would do well to remember John Paul II's endorsement of the principle of subsidiarity, in which problems would be taken care of on the lowest possible level. Nations should first take care of their own, rather than things being controlled by multi-national bodies.

Edited July 28, 2006 by Socrates

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1032229' date='Jul 27 2006, 04:07 PM']
Is there a reason you "tend to be suspicious of ultra-conservatives like him"? Or is it simply because you consider him "ultra-conservative"? I've noticed that a lot of people tend to dismiss people's ideas as "extremist" or "ultra-conservative," rather than actually engage their ideas themselves.
[/quote]

I am naturally suspicious -- its a philosophical disposition. But yes, more "extreme" views would tend to garner more suspicion. In any case, I haven't dismissed his ideas so what most people tend to do seems irrelevant.

[Era Might]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=55370&pid=1032866&st=0entry1032866"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...0entry1032866[/url]

[the 13th papist]

Socrates,
you bring up some good points and i agree that america should look out for the interests of americans, but that we should also look at all the aspects including global of any choice. i too would prefer that we be more self sufficient or at least have a favorable ballance of trade.

my point about thomas jefferson was to document the source of the idea or separation of church and state, not legitimize it because i was writen my thomas jefferson.

God bless,

[Lahecil]

We have to remember Jefferson said a lot of things.

[quote]I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world geniuses and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.[/quote]

[quote]Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.[/quote]

[quote]The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.[/quote]

[quote]But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object.[/quote]

Now...he also said the complete opposite...

[quote]God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.[/quote]

Oh my goodness! He flip flopped!

We have to remember Jefferson said a lot of things.

[quote]I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world geniuses and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.[/quote]

[quote]Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.[/quote]

[quote]The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.[/quote]

[quote]But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object.[/quote]

Now...he also said the complete opposite...

[quote]God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.[/quote]

Oh my goodness! He flip flopped!

[mortify]

Superficial Christianity is the largest religion in the world.