good catholics

[dairygirl4u2c]

ty

[Guest JeffCR07]

depends on what you mean. A person can privately struggle with a teaching, but what is important is that they give a religious submission of mind and will, and that they do not publicly disagree with the Church's teachings.

[Era Might]

Outlawed as in punished by the civil authorities? No.

Private vice (such as fornication) is not the business of the civil authorities, unless it affects the common good (such as pornography).

[pyranima]

Pornography should be outlawed, if you look at surveys of Porn you will see that most boys are exposed to their first pornographic image at 11 while doing homework.

however fornication is a different and more difficult matter. as Christians (setting aside any claim to Catholicism) i believe we would all agree that fornication should be outlawed as it goes directly against the teachings in the gospels. however as a Catholic i would go a step further and say not only does it go against the teaching of Christ but it also manifests evidence for moral degradation of a community. while i do not believe that fornication should be treated as a capital crime i do believe that because of its direct moral effect it should be a crime.

Adultry (a specific form of fornication) should be treated as a much more sever crime and while pre-marital sex should be fined Adultry should be fined and you should recieve Jail time.

I would also say that a crime such as rape (dependent on the attackers age) should result in casteration. threaten a man with jail time and he will do it, threaten to cut off his penis and he will think twice... and a third time... and a fourth......

[DAF]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1037432' date='Aug 4 2006, 09:17 AM']
Outlawed as in punished by the civil authorities? No.

Private vice (such as fornication) is not the business of the civil authorities, unless it affects the common good (such as pornography).
[/quote]

Hear hear! *Rabble rabble rabble*

[Era Might]

[quote name='pyranima' post='1037820' date='Aug 4 2006, 11:56 PM']Adultry (a specific form of fornication) should be treated as a much more sever crime and while pre-marital sex should be fined Adultry should be fined and you should recieve Jail time.[/quote]
The Lord didn't hand the woman caught in adultery over to the authorities. He said, "Go, and sin no more."

It is not our job to punish private vice, or try to make some utopian society. The civil authorities should protect the common good, and leave it to God to handle vice, whether it's pride or greed or unchastity or whatever.

Edited August 5, 2006 by Era Might

[DAF]

Era Might hit it on the head. If you respond yes, it becomes a question of where you draw the line. Do we imprison people for pride or lust? Perhaps one can argue a case for things like fornication on the surface, but dig deeper and they're all really the same. It's all or nothing really.

[pyranima]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1037831' date='Aug 4 2006, 09:01 PM']
The Lord didn't hand the woman caught in adultery over to the authorities. He said, "Go, and sin no more."

It is not our job to punish private vice, or try to make some utopian society. The civil authorities should protect the common good, and leave it to God to handle vice, whether it's pride or greed or unchastity or whatever.
[/quote]
Oh yes i am so sorry, i see you are right. Lets teach our Kids that there is no temporal punishment for sin God will deal with it. am i the only one who is aware that until recent times Adultry was a Crime? you all seem to be under the misconception that Laws are based on the will of the people. laws are based off of the natural law. when a kid grows up in a home where he knows the father (or mother) is commiting acts of adultry (kids are smarter than you think trust me), then what is that kid going to do? he is going to grow up thinking its ok.

I hate to be the one to inform everyone however it IS our responsiblity to impose our Morals upon those around us. it IS our responsibility to elavate the moral standard. and it IS our duty to make this place as much of a utopia as possible (while keeping in mind our heavenly goal). I am so sick and tired of hearing about how its not our job to do this or not our job to do that how its not our job to make people be good its not our job to punish people for their private vice. bull. should someone be punished for a vice like Masturbation? no i dont believe that is reasonable, however when it comes to things like pre-marital sex, and adultry then Yes! most assured it is our Responsiblity to do so, as St. Paul says Woah to me if i do not preach the good news. he goes on to say that if my brother sins a sin of death and i do not stop him or try to stop him that my brothers blood is on my hands and i will be punished for it.

Enough of this bull of "Judge not", properly understood it is judge no ones soul, however condemn their actions. if someone is living in vice and i say nothing then their sin becomes mine. Adultry is not some minor vice, it is something most serious ask anyone who has been effected by adultry and see if its not really a big deal. i mean they are only cheating whats so bad about that? you know what homosexuality is a vice also who are we to say its wrong and who are we to tell people they cant do that, an abortion oh man we are really on the wrong track if that is someones vice that is between them and God.

my point, we have a responsiblity.

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='pyranima' post='1038040' date='Aug 5 2006, 10:19 AM']
Oh yes i am so sorry, i see you are right. Lets teach our Kids that there is no temporal punishment for sin God will deal with it. am i the only one who is aware that until recent times Adultry was a Crime? you all seem to be under the misconception that Laws are based on the will of the people. laws are based off of the natural law. when a kid grows up in a home where he knows the father (or mother) is commiting acts of adultry (kids are smarter than you think trust me), then what is that kid going to do? he is going to grow up thinking its ok.

I hate to be the one to inform everyone however it IS our responsiblity to impose our Morals upon those around us. it IS our responsibility to elavate the moral standard. and it IS our duty to make this place as much of a utopia as possible (while keeping in mind our heavenly goal). I am so sick and tired of hearing about how its not our job to do this or not our job to do that how its not our job to make people be good its not our job to punish people for their private vice. bull. should someone be punished for a vice like Masturbation? no i dont believe that is reasonable, however when it comes to things like pre-marital sex, and adultry then Yes! most assured it is our Responsiblity to do so, as St. Paul says Woah to me if i do not preach the good news. he goes on to say that if my brother sins a sin of death and i do not stop him or try to stop him that my brothers blood is on my hands and i will be punished for it.

Enough of this bull of "Judge not", properly understood it is judge no ones soul, however condemn their actions. if someone is living in vice and i say nothing then their sin becomes mine. Adultry is not some minor vice, it is something most serious ask anyone who has been effected by adultry and see if its not really a big deal. i mean they are only cheating whats so bad about that? you know what homosexuality is a vice also who are we to say its wrong and who are we to tell people they cant do that, an abortion oh man we are really on the wrong track if that is someones vice that is between them and God.

my point, we have a responsiblity.
[/quote]

No-one's condoning it. And there's a BIG difference between sex outside of marriage and abortion (although the one might lead to the other).

Jesus Himself let the woman off - who are we to say otherwise?

I agree with you that adultery is a serious issue. But this is one of those situations where we should preach by example. No relationship will get better if you put the adulterer in jail. And when people only refrain from fornication because of the punishment, you have done NOTHING to improve their morals. You've added some spice to their sin.

Legal action is not the way here. Information and good examples are.

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1037432' date='Aug 4 2006, 10:17 AM']
Outlawed as in punished by the civil authorities? No.

Private vice (such as fornication) is not the business of the civil authorities, unless it affects the common good (such as pornography).
[/quote]
:applause:

[homeschoolmom]

:applause:

[Budge]

The whole belief that if God cant make someone be good, lets have the government do it, usually backfires.

There is of coruse a point where government has to step in for protection of people but to have the government dictate goodness doesnt work.

The marriage of state and church has always been a bad idea. Roman Catholicism has definitely shown that.

The way thingas should work is that when a person is a Christian their heart is changed from within. Morality in society goes from the individual on up instead of the other way around. It doesnt work the best when applied by a hammer.

One reason our society has grown so immoral, is because there are so few Christians serving as the salt to keep society from going rotten.

There is a purpose served for vices that endanger the weak to be outlawed...

but for the rest of it, you will only guarantee yourself a bigger mess.

[chris]

The church teaches that these actions are sin. But, I have never known a moment when any church had coerced me into a view of outlawed sins.

I dont really know

Edited August 5, 2006 by Convert4888

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Budge' post='1038091' date='Aug 5 2006, 09:53 AM']
The marriage of state and church has always been a bad idea. Roman Catholicism has definitely shown that.[/quote]
The Church's teaching is that the state confess the Catholic faith, protect it (but not force it upon people), and not infringe upon it. The closest thing I can think of to a Catholic combined church-state government was the soon-to-be-doomed Roman Empire under Emperor Theodosius I.

[Budge]

[quote]but not force it upon people)[/quote]

Force was the name of the game during the Inquisitions.

[Norseman82]

From what I understand, there have been laws against fornication in many states (I don't have them at hand and they may be rare and not enforced), at least for underage people, so I don't see this as a bad idea.

[musturde]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1038120' date='Aug 5 2006, 09:48 AM']
From what I understand, there have been laws against fornication in many states (I don't have them at hand and they may be rare and not enforced), at least for underage people, so I don't see this as a bad idea.
[/quote]

except about 80 percent of the population would be in jail...

[Era Might]

[quote]Oh yes i am so sorry, i see you are right. Lets teach our Kids that there is no temporal punishment for sin God will deal with it.[/quote]
Yes, that's right. The government is not in the business of handing out temporal punishment for private vice. We all have vice, and that is between me and my Priest, not the government.

[quote] am i the only one who is aware that until recent times Adultry was a Crime?[/quote]
Why is that relevant? Alcohol was once a criminal product in this country. Here in Massachusetts, we still have laws that reflect the utopian strictness of the Puritans. This idea that private vice has to be punished is not Catholic.

[quote]my point, we have a responsiblity.[/quote]
No, we don't. The government has no business in private vice. This is not a fascist state. People fall. People sin. The holiest people on this earth fall every day, and it has NEVER been a Catholic answer to criminalize private vice. Not even in the age of Christendom were people arrested for private vice.

The government is in the business of the common good. The reason why things like pornography are restricted is because they involve the public good. If someone wants to make pornography in the privacy of their home, God will judge them. But when they bring that into society, then the government has to protect its citizens.

When almighty God caught a woman in adultery, he didn't hand her over to the Romans or the rulers of Israel. He counseled her appropriately: as a pastor. And if the authorities had come to arrest her, he would have denounced them on the spot.

"Has anyone here condemned you? Neither do I condemn you. Go, and sin no more."

That is the appropriate response to private vice.

Edited August 5, 2006 by Era Might

[Era Might]

By the way, St. Catherine of Siena discusses this in her "Dialogue" with God the Father:

[quote]The old law was the law of fear, that was given by Me to Moses, by which law they who committed sin suffered the penalty of it. The new law is the law of love, given by the Word of My only-begotten Son, and is founded in love alone. ...Through love was taken away the imperfection of the fear of the penalty, and the perfection of holy fear remained. ...That is, [b]he who offended was no longer punished suddenly[/b], [b]as was of old given and ordained in the law of Moses[/b].

There is therefore no need for servile fear, and this does not mean that sin is not punished, but [b]that the punishment is reserved[/b], unless, that is to say, the person punish himself in this life with perfect contrition. For, in the other life, the soul is separated from the body, whereas while man lives is his time for mercy.[/quote]

[Norseman82]

[quote name='musturde' post='1038138' date='Aug 5 2006, 10:29 AM']
except about 80 percent of the population would be in jail...
[/quote]

Suits me fine....a lot less traffic on the road!!!!!


Plus it would make it easier for virgins to find other virgins to be equally yoked to....