Budge Posted August 9, 2006 Posted August 9, 2006 is this still being taught in the seminaries? [quote] Quote:"What is the first and daily school lesson taught to young Roman Catholic?[font="Arial Black"] Is it not that one of the greatest crimes which a man can commit is to follow his 'private judgement'? This means that he has eyes, ears and intelligence, but he cannot make use of them without danger of being eternally damned. His Superiors, the priest and the pope, must see for him, hear for him and think for him."[/font] "If this appears to be an exaggeration, allow me to force the Church of Rome to come here and speak for herself. [size=5]Here are the very words of the so-called "Saint" Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Jesuit Society: "As for holy obedience, this virtue must be perfect in every point, in execution, in will, in intellect, doing which is enjoined with all celerity, spiritual joy and perserverance, persuading ourselves that everything is just, suppressing every repugnant thought and judgement of one's own, in a certain obedience and let every one persuade himself that he who lives under obedience; should be moved and directed, under Divine Providence, by his superior, JUST AS HE WERE A CORPSE which allows itself to be moved and led in every direction"[/size] [/quote] page 52 50 Years in the Church of Rome, Charles Chiniquy How many of you agree with these teachings of Loyola? [quote] He then developed a philosophy for the Church, which was built on faith.[b] For instance, if the Church said something was white, you regarded it as white, even though you thought it was black.[/b] He encouraged people to trust the Church, instead of relying on his/her own insight.[/quote]
Groo the Wanderer Posted August 9, 2006 Posted August 9, 2006 Are you bored? Instead of spending yer time trying to knock the big CC with a bunch of misquotes and out of context snippets...you should instead look at some Catholic apologetics. At least then you are looking at something that can be taken seriously and with some authority. If you are trying to prove something against the Church, then you should go to better sources to start your study... WARNING: if you do this, you might exeperience a change of heart....could lead to conversion.... Are ye up to it?
Anomaly Posted August 9, 2006 Posted August 9, 2006 Budge, Please bash with honesty. Everyone knows that there are more official documents to quote and picking some random 'unofficial' quotes just doesn't hold water. Though honestly, lot's of Catholics do think (wrongly) your post is correct. The Catechism tells Catholics the default belief is the Chruch interpretation, but they should follow their own Conscience with proper respect and weight given to the teachings of the Church. It's a grave and serious matter. Undisciplined private interpretation is the denominationalism that has 2 baptist churches accross the street from each other.
Catholic Fanatic Posted August 9, 2006 Posted August 9, 2006 Budge you have been corrected so many times. Yet you will not listen. "that they may have ears and not hear, eyes and not see". You attack straw man caricatures of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church created in 33AD by Jesus Christ who said the gates of hell would never prevail against her, instead of the actual arguments. The Terrible Judge will call you to Himself and have you killed, as he did with the criminals in the Gosple of Luke. "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord.." You will suffer wailing and gnashing of teeth, and won't be released until you have paid the last penny, which you cannot accomplish in literal fires of hell. Repent or be damned.
thessalonian Posted August 9, 2006 Posted August 9, 2006 By the way, I find this thread and your other one rather comical and contradictory. You proclaim "private judgement" as this great virtue yet you accuse the Catholic faith of Lording over the scriptures. If one looks at the reality of what happens in Christianity, those who preach sola scriptura end up being the ones that assert their personal opinions as being the word of God when many times they are contradicting eachother, making either one of both wrong.
Jesuspaidtheprice Posted August 9, 2006 Posted August 9, 2006 1 Peter 1:20 I believe is the standard for the Catholic understanding of interpretation. The scriptures do require interpretation so the real question is, who should be allowed to interpret them so that one does not fall into heresy?
pyranima Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 Budge you Rome-o-phobe. read Catholicism and Fundamentalism
Budge Posted August 10, 2006 Author Posted August 10, 2006 I own Karl Keatings book Pyranimia, It actually helped to cement my own belief. Rome has chained the Bible away from all of your hearts. That is so sad. They falsely teach you that you cannot read it and understand. The Holy Spirit leads the Christian to under Gods Word, it is not just for specially ordained experts. Everyone here go read Hebrews 10. I converted out of Rome, reading a badly translated CATHOLIC NAB BIBLE. There are things in the Bible you all need to learn.
avemaria40 Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 Except I do read it and understand it. But the guidance of the Magisterium is helpful in understanding. "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" 2 Peter 1:20-21 The Magisterium wasn't against reading and understanding, they were against disunity.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1040887' date='Aug 10 2006, 11:53 AM'] I own Karl Keatings book Pyranimia, It actually helped to cement my own belief. Rome has chained the Bible away from all of your hearts. That is so sad. They falsely teach you that you cannot read it and understand. The Holy Spirit leads the Christian to under Gods Word, it is not just for specially ordained experts. Everyone here go read Hebrews 10. I converted out of Rome, reading a badly translated CATHOLIC NAB BIBLE. There are things in the Bible you all need to learn. [/quote] Budge, you still haven't replied to my other thread...the one on your one world religion theory. We were having such a pleasant debate. The Church most certainly teaches us to use our reason to understand the Scriptures. She simply also says that we must have guides. If the Holy Spirit told you one thing, and you said, "no, I interpret it this way," you would think it was heresy to against the Holy Spirit, but when Christ established the Magisterium of the Church, promising that the Holy Spirit would protect it from error, you won't believe the Holy Spirit as it speaks through the Church. So really, what is the issue...do you not trust authority, or do you not trust human beings?
Budge Posted August 10, 2006 Author Posted August 10, 2006 [quote] The Church most certainly teaches us to use our reason to understand the Scriptures. She simply also says that we must have guides. If the Holy Spirit told you one thing, and you said, "no, I interpret it this way," you would think it was heresy to against the Holy Spirit, but when Christ established the Magisterium of the Church, promising that the Holy Spirit would protect it from error, you won't believe the Holy Spirit as it speaks through the Church. So really, what is the issue...do you not trust authority, or do you not trust human beings?[/quote] The idea that only EXPERTS can interpret scripture for Christian believers is false. This is one of the biggest lies out hell, as this totally chains the Bible away from Catholics hearts. This gives your leaders free reign to teach things totally opposite to the teachings of scripture such as the interfaith movement and tell Catholics, "we know what we are doing, dont ask too many questions. If you see other things taught in Gods Word, ignore them because we are the only ones who understand and interpret scriptures correctly" Why did Jesus chastise the Sadducees for not knowing Scriptures if it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to interpret or understand them? [font="Lucida Console"] Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? [/font] Why does Paul Instruct us to study scripture if we cant understand it? [font="Lucida Console"] 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Gods Word tells us over and over that the Holy Spirit NOT A GROUP OF MEN will intepret scripture for God's children and will help them understand all things. [font=Lucida Console]Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.[/font] Rome's claim that this is only for a special select group of men is FALSE. the other disciples of Christ not just the apostles were led by the Holy Spirit. [size=5] THIS VERSE PROVES THAT JESUS NEVER INTENDED FOR A SPECIAL GROUP OF EXPERTS TO TELL US WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS....[/size] [size=5] 1Jo 2:26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, [u]and ye need not that any man teach you:[/u] but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him[/size] So do you believe this verse or do you not?
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1040911' date='Aug 10 2006, 12:12 PM'] The idea that only EXPERTS can interpret scripture for Christian believers is false. This is one of the biggest lies out hell, as this totally chains the Bible away from Catholics hearts. This gives your leaders free reign to teach things totally opposite to the teachings of scripture such as the interfaith movement and tell Catholics, "we know what we are doing, dont ask too many questions. If you see other things taught in Gods Word, ignore them because we are the only ones who understand and interpret scriptures correctly" Why did Jesus chastise the Sadducees for not knowing Scriptures if it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to interpret or understand them? [font="Lucida Console"] Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? [/font] Why does Paul Instruct us to study scripture if we cant understand it? [font="Lucida Console"] 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Gods Word tells us over and over that the Holy Spirit NOT A GROUP OF MEN will intepret scripture for God's children and will help them understand all things. [font=Lucida Console]Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.[/font] Rome's claim that this is only for a special select group of men is FALSE. the other disciples of Christ not just the apostles were led by the Holy Spirit. [size=5] THIS VERSE PROVES THAT JESUS NEVER INTENDED FOR A SPECIAL GROUP OF EXPERTS TO TELL US WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS....[/size] [size=5] 1Jo 2:26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, [u]and ye need not that any man teach you:[/u] but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him[/size] So do you believe this verse or do you not? [/quote] Did you even read what I typed? I never, ever said that we couldn't interpret Scripture. I said that we couldn't interpret it without guidance. If you think you can, then you must think you're God.
Budge Posted August 10, 2006 Author Posted August 10, 2006 [quote] 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him So do you believe this verse or do you not? Did you even read what I typed? I never, ever said that we couldn't interpret Scripture. I said that we couldn't interpret it without guidance. If you think you can, then you must think you're God.[/quote] I think you are getting a bit confused. During the thread, you have told me that one has to have the Magisterium to interpret scripture properly and now because I have shown you this verse, you are backtracking and now telling me Catholics can interpret scripture but now with GUIDANCE. Guidance is still TEACHING. One either is going to choose to believe what the Bible says, that Christians do not need teachers to understand the Bible, or they are going to believe convoluted teachings of Rome. Here is another verse to show you that Jesus Christ never meant for there to be a Magisterium. [font="Lucida Console"][size=5][u]Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master,[/u][/size] [even] Christ.[/font] [b]Jesus is saying right there, that the apostles are NOT to be called MASTERS.[/b] Now lets look what the word MAGISTERIUM means... from dictionary.com [quote] [b]mag·is·te·ri·um [/b] Audio pronunciation of "magisterium" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mj-stîr-m) n. Roman Catholic Church The authority to teach religious doctrine. [Latin, the office of a teacher or other person in authority, [size=5]from magister, master. See magisterial.[/size] [Download Now or Buy the Book] Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. [/quote]
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1040953' date='Aug 10 2006, 03:13 PM'] I think you are getting a bit confused. During the thread, you have told me that one has to have the Magisterium to interpret scripture properly and now because I have shown you this verse, you are backtracking and now telling me Catholics can interpret scripture but now with GUIDANCE. Guidance is still TEACHING. One either is going to choose to believe what the Bible says, that Christians do not need teachers to understand the Bible, or they are going to believe convoluted teachings of Rome. [/quote] The Magisterium is needed to interpret Scripture. Their interpretation, which is in line with the Holy Spirit, is how they guide us. It is the Church, the whole Church, that reads the Scriptures. It is the Church, the whole Church, that interprets the Scriptures. The Church is guided by the Magisterium, but it is not JUST the Magisterium. [quote]Here is another verse to show you that Jesus Christ never meant for there to be a Magisterium. [font="Lucida Console"][size=5][u]Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master,[/u][/size] [even] Christ.[/font] [b]Jesus is saying right there, that the apostles are NOT to be called MASTERS.[/b] Now lets look what the word MAGISTERIUM means... from dictionary.com[/quote] I know full well what magisterium means. It means "teaching office," that is, the gift and duty to teach. Jesus Christ said what, to proclaim the Gospel to the whole world, right? To teach the whole world everything that He taught them? Sounds like He's calling them teachers and instituting a teaching office to me. Yet, as you pointed out, He said not to call themselves teachers. As you can see, then, there is an apparent contradiction. Wherever there is an apparent contradiction in Scripture, our understanding is off. Scripture is clearly inerrant. So let's look at this...Jesus was telling them not to lord it over their followers. Look at the context...He isn't telling them not to be called master or teacher or father...He is telling them not to go aspiring after offices and honors.
Budge Posted August 10, 2006 Author Posted August 10, 2006 [quote]He is telling them not to go aspiring after offices and honors.[/quote] I think thats already happened. [img]http://www.pepik.net/fotky/papamobil/papanositka.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.remnantofgod.org/bow2pope2.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.24carat.co.uk/images/2002vatican10eurocentobv240.jpg[/img]
Thy Geekdom Come Posted August 10, 2006 Posted August 10, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1041125' date='Aug 10 2006, 06:39 PM'] I think thats already happened. [img]http://www.pepik.net/fotky/papamobil/papanositka.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.remnantofgod.org/bow2pope2.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.24carat.co.uk/images/2002vatican10eurocentobv240.jpg[/img] [/quote] Oh, hey, what do you know...it looks like God lavished honors on those popes...without their aspiring to it. There were certainly popes who aspired after honors, but that doesn't invalidate the Magisterium. Human abuses of a divine system to not invalidate the divine system. The Church exists and stands in spite of us...myself included. Oh, and the popes you have used for images were all wonderful, humble men.
curtins Posted August 11, 2006 Posted August 11, 2006 So you quote scripture that says you have but one master--> The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit (God ie our master) in interperting scripture. So in essence we are listening to the master. God directing us through the church. you say all this stuff like Christ never intended this or that he never intended the magisterium etc etc--> thats saying that Christ screwed up and couldnt establish his Church and guide his Church correctly. Whats the worth in worshiping someone who screwed up so bad like that? So you are wasting your time and phatmass's bandwith because according to you Christ screwed up so your wasting your time.
chris Posted August 11, 2006 Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) Budge, Im sorry but...You own arguments arent even working for you. You really came to a bad place to aspouse all your wisdom. I dont know nor do I care if you are on your own little crusade, But you are misquoteing and you are really bearing false wittness and as a brother in Christ I am begging you to cease in this nonsense. You are making yourself look extremely foolish. The main point is this. I worship Christ and so DO YOU. We need to find unity (in a world which, wants nothing to do with our LORD JESUS CHRIST.) I do not exclusivly bow down and worhsip the host. I have extreme reverence for it. And nor do I worship the Blessed Virgin, however I am devoted to her and to the Confraternity to the Most Holy Rosary. Dont sweat the small stuff. Just worship in peace. And try deep down in your heart to find unity. ~In Christ -Chris Edited August 11, 2006 by Convert4888
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