How Many Masses Does It take to Get out of Purgatory?

[Budge]

[quote]If a devout poor Catholic donated all of their money to the Church to have masses said for the repose of their soul[/quote]

Actually that would be stupid if they had children to take care of and didnt pay their rent or buy food to get Masses instead.

Any church that would hit a poor person up, [most poor people being with out expendable income], so they could "pay" their way out of Purgatory is messed up.

Rome is lying to millions saying they can BUY their SALVATION.

Truly SICK!

[quote]We depend on Mary [/quote]

Thats your problem in a nutshell.

Mary cant get anyone to heaven.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1047250' date='Aug 21 2006, 12:49 PM']
And WHAT DOCUMENT can you link me to that OFFICIALLY supports what you just claimed?

[/quote]

Try: [url="http://www.awmach.org"]http://www.awmach.org[/url] then look for Luke 21:1-4.

A book called THE BIBLE....

[uruviel]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' post='1046591' date='Aug 20 2006, 08:05 AM']
How many Masses does it take to get out of Purgatory?

I'm not sure, Budge, but if I was you I would worry about getting there first.
[/quote]

great point olamdad!!

[curtins]

[quote] SO...let me get this straight here...you say the CLOTH ITSELF means absolutely NOTHING...right?
So, the status of the sinner is EXACTLY THE SAME in purgetory IF HE/SHE IS *OR* IS NOT WEARING the scapular at the time of death....right? The duration of time in Purgatory is NOT modified whatsoever either way, I don't want to misquote you here... [/quote]


I've discovered a new protestant 'doctrine' or belief, quite similar to sola scriptura (or whatever you call it). Its called misquota da catholica.

I never said the cloth has absolutly no meaning. The cloth is the outward sign of the devotion. If someone is wearing the cloth it means they're practicing the devotion. Theres much more to it than wearing a piece of wool. Its not a get out of jail free card so if I wear this I can do anything I want and will get of purgatory on the next saturday anyways. The scapular is simply a devotion to the Blessed Mother in which we implore her help for us here on earth and especially when we die. If someone is living the devotion and living according to Christ then the scapular has much meaning and importance behind it. If they are simply using it thinking it a free pass to heaven and doing whatever they want, then at best they are profaning a sacred devotion given to us by the Mother of God.

[quote]Mary cant get anyone to heaven.[/quote]

Yes, Budge, the queen of heaven can bring the Savior into the world, remain a virgin, remain sinless yet she cannot pray for us on earth or those in purgatory by exercising the unique and direct relationship she has with her son. That makes complete sense. (that was sarcasm in case you missed it)

and again you take my quote out of context and make it seem like we worship Mary and depend soley on her.

[quote] Thats your problem in a nutshell.[/quote]

Ahhh and all of this Church corruption, hindu masses, and the evil dictatorship of Rome which you keep talking about has come about because of devotion to Mary! And the way the evil male dominated hierarchy of the church screwed EVERYTHING up from what Christ intended was all due to Mary! Ok now I get it.

Your Problem in a nutshell: Thinking you know better than God.

Edited August 21, 2006 by curtins

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1047262' date='Aug 21 2006, 01:50 PM']
Actually that would be stupid if they had children to take care of and didnt pay their rent or buy food to get Masses instead.

Any church that would hit a poor person up, [most poor people being with out expendable income], so they could "pay" their way out of Purgatory is messed up.

Rome is lying to millions saying they can BUY their SALVATION.

Truly SICK!

Thats your problem in a nutshell.

Mary cant get anyone to heaven.[/quote]
Careful with your accusations: ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark12.htm#v41"]link[/url])
[quote name='Mark 12:41-44']He sat down opposite the treasury and observed how the crowd put money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. A poor widow also came and put in two small coins worth a few cents. Calling his disciples to himself, he said to them, "Amen, I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the other contributors to the treasury. For they have all contributed from their surplus wealth, but she, from her poverty, has contributed all she had, her whole livelihood."[/quote]It sounds as if you are being critical of Our Lord, who explains that the widow contributed "[b]her whole livelihood[/b]." She's certainly not offering from her surplus, as the rich people in the parable. If the Gospel of Budge were true, Our Lord would certainly have rejected her offering.

Anyway, Budge, haven't you been here long enough to know the difference between the punishment of purgatory and the question of salvation? For those in purgatory, there is no question of whether they will be saved. So, how can you claim that someone is buying their salvation? Are you uninformed or are you knowingly bearing false witness against us? I think that it's time for you to move beyond your cartoonish mis-characterizations of the Catholic Faith. Leave that to Jack Chick.

Finally, if you think that the doctrine of purgatory is a "money maker" for the Catholic Church, you're really not in touch with reality. If you were looking for mammon-focused churches, do a little searching, and you might uncover a few fundamentalist churches that are adamant about 10% tithing among their members. A simple review of clergy salaries will reveal where someone can make money by being a man (or woman) of the cloth. It ain't the Catholic Church, though.

[Aloysius]

I didn't say that they should do that. I'm saying it's the difference between giving all one is able to give or just giving a little bit. If you give all you are able to give, it is more meritorious than if you only give a little bit of what you are able. The Church has consistently taught proportionality when it comes to donations, following the instructions of Her Lord in the Holy Gospel According to St. Luke.

Rome consistently has condemned the sin of simony in Councils and Encyclicals. There's your official document that proves that this is nothing more than a donation to the Church; any priest who did it as if it were payment for masses or payment for heaven would have so many ancient anathemas covering him he'd be in purgatory till the end of time if he even made it there. And the Church has always viewed donations in that proportional way. The law of Tithes has always said to give at least 10%, accross the board rich and poor alike, to charity/church. The more you are able to give according to your means, the more of a good work it is. This is rooted in the Bible and is clearly taught by the Church.

Find me anywhere the Church has said #1 that you can buy masses and #2 that the more masses which specificially mention your name the sooner you get out of purgatory and I'll give you all I am able to give you according to my means.

[curtins]

Mr. Owl- How many licks does it take to get out of Pergatory?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='curtins' post='1047339' date='Aug 21 2006, 02:20 PM']
Mr. Owl- How many licks does it take to get out of Pergatory?[/quote]
Ah-one, ah-two, ah-three, .... ah-fifty two, ah-fifty--CRUNCH!

52 licks.

[thessalonian]

There is infinite grace involved in each Mass and so if the soul in purgatory is open to that grace perfectly, then it will only take one. Otherwise it could take more. That's up to God. That depends on the state of the purity of the soul. For "Nothing unclean shall enter".

[Eutychus]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1047337' date='Aug 21 2006, 11:19 AM']


Rome consistently has condemned the sin of simony in Councils and Encyclicals.
[/quote]

She had too, for Simony was THE WAY the system was operated under! Selling of office was pretty much the NORM for 700 years.

[curtins]

Mister Eutychus, How many licks does it take to get out of Purgatory?

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1047447' date='Aug 21 2006, 03:59 PM']
She had too, for Simony was THE WAY the system was operated under! Selling of office was pretty much the NORM for 700 years.
[/quote]
it was far from the "NORM" for 700 years. it was a frequent abuse, because it is a great temptation to aim at whatever has temporal power in the world and use it for your own petty gain. while the Church had temporal power, she was thusly attacked by men of greed.

but the Church herself continually preached against it and disciplined those who did it severely.

simony even had to be condemned in the New Testament. it's human nature: people want to use spiritual things for temporal prestigue.

[jswranch]

(jswranch terribly sorry for hijacking the thread)


Would anyone agree that pedaphilia is the new simony for Catholics today?

[Aloysius]

if by that, you mean that less than 1% of priests were committing simony in medieval times, then you're mistaken. if it's the other way around and the media has convinced you that pedophilia is widespread among the priesthood, then you are also mistaken.

[b]less than 1% of priests have had credible accusations of pedophilia against them[/b]

pedophilia is something that happens because our culture has a sickness and the clergy comes from that culture. simony is something that used to happen because people attempted to seize the Church's temporal power with their money.

I don't think the two are too analogous other than them both being sins committed by members of the clergy.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I think its funny how Budge and Eutychus think that shamelessly supporting one another can somehow make their arguments more valid.

[Eutychus]

[quote]I think its funny how Budge and Eutychus think that shamelessly supporting one another can somehow make their arguments more valid. [/quote]

You will find that most former Roman Catholics brought out { Rev 18:4 } by the grace of God will sound the same, without collaboration, without consultation.

There is joy that being out of the Catholic Church brings, freedom, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit tends to cause one to approach ANY sacerdotal dinosaur with a very similar skepticism and distain.

If you have been on EX Legionairres sites, or EX Opus Dei, or EX Mormons, or EX JW's, you will see pretty much the same attitudes towards the former groups that they at one time loved, and now hold with a high degree of contempt.

[Aloysius]

"and they will know we are Christians by our contempt, by our contempt! Yes, they'll know we are Christians by our contempt!"

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1047728' date='Aug 21 2006, 09:13 PM']You will find that most former Roman Catholics brought out { Rev 18:4 } by the grace of God will sound the same, without collaboration, without consultation.

There is joy that being out of the Catholic Church brings, freedom, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit tends to cause one to approach ANY sacerdotal dinosaur with a very similar skepticism and distain.[/quote]I guess we have different views of joy.

Your example here on this forum is devoid of any perceivable joy, and is consistent with the mean-spirited attitude of some portion of ex-Catholics I have known in the real world. I have yet to see any joy or positive attitude from you regarding your religious beliefs--you're always focused on the splinter in someone else's eye. So far, in my judgment, you posts maintain a condescending tone, and you can't seem to hurl enough epithets at Catholics. Terribly unfortunate behavior, and--sadly--contrary to the Christian virtue of Charity.

[Budge]

[quote]less than 1% of priests have had credible accusations of pedophilia against them[/quote]

You havent figured out yet the problem wasnt pedophilia but homosexuality?

Most of those abused were post-pubscent teens. Even the John Jay report admitted to that.

[adsdrummer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1048175' date='Aug 22 2006, 04:23 PM']
You havent figured out yet the problem wasnt pedophilia but homosexuality?

Most of those abused were post-pubscent teens. Even the John Jay report admitted to that.
[/quote]

not so.. when an adult male is sexually attracted to another adult male, that is homosexuality, however, when that male is sexually attracted to a male child, it is pedophilia(as reported by the American Psychiatric Association & webMD). anytime an adult is sexually attracted to a child it is classified as pedophilia.