Vatican Billions

[stbernardLT]

Wow, I know we don't have protestants talking about making money through religion. I think we've all seen TBN. I know pastors around here that are filthy rich (blessings from God) eventhough most of them set their own salary. They collect W2 from parishioners and make them feel horrible if they can't meet the tithe every month. While they flash, the fancy cars, houses, and jets. I've never read about one of the followers of Christ living so extravagant in the bible. Our priests make close to nothing and our pope lives in a little apartment, but we are rollin in the dough. It seems to me like someone has a beam stuck in their eye.

How about the "Mega Churches". Forty thousand people at one time. Now that is some cash mister Olstein. Forget about the fact that there is no possible way to make sure all the spiritual needs of 40,000 people are being met, let's past the tray (or should I say dump truck).

Our priests take a vow of poverty, what do your pators take, a vow of prosperity. Even if they have families to support, they are still abusing their leadership role.

[Eutychus]

[quote] [color="#660000"][b]Vatican Bank Top 10 Money Laundering Destination

29 November 2001

[u]According to one global source, the Vatican is the main destination for over $55 billion in illegal Italian money laundering [size=4]and the number 8 destination worldwide for laundered money[/size], ranked well ahead of such offshore havens as the Bahamas, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein[/u].

In a recent report by the London Telegraph and the Inside Fraud Bulletin, the Vatican was named as a top “cut out” country along with the offshore banking centers of Nauru, Macao, and Mauritius.

A “cut out” country is one whose banking secrecy makes it is all but impossible to trace laundered funds back to their source.[/b][/color]

The Vatican Bank is desperately resisting a legal action for an accounting of stolen World War II assets in a San Francisco Federal court (Alperin v. Vatican Bank) filed by Serb and Jewish Holocaust survivors. Contrary to the above reports, a declaration filed under penalty of perjury by the Vatican Bank’s attorney, Franzo Grande Stevens, states in part that the Vatican Bank’s “fundamental purpose is to promote pious acts” and that its depositors “are essentially limited to Vatican state employees, members of the Holy See, religious orders, and persons who deposit money destined, at least in part, for works of piety.” Stevens also declared to the court that the Pope controls the Vatican Bank and that bank records are not retained after ten years.

It seems that the Vatican Bank, a major illegal money laundering operation, is hiding behind the benign image of John Paul II. Given the Vatican Bank’s alleged involvement with Nazi loot and current links to organized crime, a reckoning cannot be far off. [/quote]

[url="http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/275.html"]http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/275.html[/url]

Edited August 21, 2006 by Eutychus

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1046923' date='Aug 20 2006, 07:49 PM']

[quote]According to one global source, the Vatican is the main destination for over $55 billion in illegal Italian money laundering and the number 8 destination worldwide for laundered money, ranked well ahead of such offshore havens as the Bahamas, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein.[/quote]

[/quote]

Ah, yes, that famous reliable "one global source".

[i]Global source, global source, come out come out wherever you are![/i]









Oh, and BTW....


[i]"Critiquing silken dresses and golden hockey sticks"?????[/i]

Edited August 21, 2006 by Norseman82

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1046681' date='Aug 20 2006, 10:35 AM']
You mean the Mexicans finally rebelled against the crimes that the Catholic Church had committed against Mexico since Cortez started cutting off the breasts of Indian women, and branding the men on their foreheads? Or the return of the expropriated and stolen wealth of the Catholic Church while the poor peasants literally were eating dirt?

Solid GOLD altars, fourty feet high, in a town were people walked barefoot....palaces for the Bishops, Cardinals, and extates, farms, hacienda's , and endless peasants to wait on them hand and foot? Coiuld THAT be the reason that they were shooting the priests and burning the monestaries?
[/quote]
This is pure baloney. I have done rather thorough research on Cortez and the conquest of Mexico, and this stuff about cutting off women's breasts and branding men is total propaganda nonsense. Cortez was not without his sins, but he was far from the cruel monster anti-Catholic propagandists have made him to be. What he did do was, against incredible odds, defeat one of the most satanic and murderous pagan regimes in known history, and begin the conversion of millions of Mexicans from paganism to Christ. The Aztecs practiced human sacrifice on a greater scale than any other known civilization, sacrificing approximately 50,000 persons a year to their demonic bloodthirsty "gods." The victims were lined up like cattle to the slaughter, to the top of the pyramids where the pagan priests would cut their hearts out from their chests.
This is the evil which Cortex and his men were faced with, and defeated.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture"](Wikipedia article here.)[/url]
([url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0931888123/sr=1-8/qid=1156129684/ref=sr_1_8/102-4862760-6096952?ie=UTF8&s=books"]good book on the topic here[/url])

It is ironic, that our "Bible Christian" friends here decry the defeat of this evil, and while constantly accusing the Catholic Church of "paganism," they express no outrage at this example of paganism at its most blatantly demonic, choosing rather to condemn those who would convert them to Christ.

And Cortez' victory would not have been possible without the aid of many natives who were happy to ally with the Spanish against their Aztec oppressors, who would take from them a tribute of prisoners for human sacrifice.

Learn the facts of history, rather than simply spouting off anti-Catholic garbage.

(And that altar's guilded, btw, not solid gold. And your ignorance of the facts of the Mexican revolution is pathetic. It was the communist government, not the common people, which was responsible for the violence against the Catholic Church. Many continued to practice their Catholic Faith despite government persecution, many priests risking all and even suffering martyrdom at the hands of the communist government. Again, ironic that the bile of these fundies is always directed towards the Catholics, while real pagans and communists are treated sympathetically in comparison!)

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1046734' date='Aug 20 2006, 12:31 PM']
Cortez isn't a poster boy of a good Catholic, but the effects of his conquering were an end to brutal pagan practices such as the sacrifice of babies.

So yeah, the Vatican Billions... those billions that are shipped all over the world to help the sick and needy? Yeah, that's the ones. I think we should hear you say: "Great job Catholic Church, even though I disagree with you doctrinally it is great that you are doing what our Lord commanded and feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving drink to the thirsty, taking care of the sick, et cetera"

The majority of artwork and temporal treasures in the Church were donated. It's all historically recorded.

The poor often are the first ones to want the churches to be full of gold and art and valuable things. They want to honor Christ with the very best.

Now, that solid gold altar could be melted down and sold and the people in that village could be fed well for a month or a year, but none of them would reach any level of comfort or luxury just from the selling up and dividing of those treasures. But every time they come to mass they get to experience their status as a kingdom of 'priests, prophets, and kings' in full royal surroundings. And it's not like they were ever deprived of help for the hungry or needy; they worked their own land for their own food and every sunday came to pay homage to the King of kings in a luxurious setting.

Please, attempt to audit our spendings... the only thing bad you'll find is how we're forced to pay an arm and a leg for the sins of less than 1% of our priests. Other than that all our funds are going towards helping the needy and offering our finest art and finest jewells to our Lord just as the woman who annointed Him with precious oil did.
[/quote]

I'd just like to add to this that additionally the number of people employed throught history needs to be taken into account. Someone had to build those Churches and maintain them, and those people would be paid. Now, which is better, to give people some money, and when that runs out they have no more and feel a loss of worth for not having contributed anything in their matinence, or to create jobs for people so that they can feel like they're contributing to their own keeping and feel self-worth?

[God Conquers]

You have convinced me of the disgusting wealth of the Church!!!!

Even though we operate on a deficit yearly due to charitable works!

There are all those priceles works of art!

We must get rid of it right away!

Who wants to buy the Pieta!?

Who wants to buy the Sistene Chapel?!




.........



No one?


Priceless = no one wants nor can afford them.


ah well...

[curtins]

See you protestants know deep down that you've got it all wrong and so now you make asinine claims about the church and attack the church because its members arn't perfect and because its members are sinners. That by no means doctrinally justifies protestantism. What don't you get about that?

[Eutychus]

[quote]That by no means doctrinally [u]justifies protestantism. What don't you get about that? [/u][/quote]

I'm NOT a "Protestant"

Sorry. We can start there if you wish.

[Budge]

1. I am not a Protestant either. Only have used that term for distinction.

In fact most mainline Prot churches have become ecumenical with Rome.

2. When Prots abuse money and rip people off--TV Evangelists, Osteen, Benny Hinn, I do not make excuses for it. In fact just like the Vatican greed for money, the Prot building treasrues on earth is just as wrong. I have posted openly against false preachers [who are not Catholic] online.

3. The Vatican has every in with the World Trade Organization, owns endless stocks and bonds and in world history has made or broken economic systems of entire nations. One reason the Vatican is tied to the elites and fornicating like mad with kings, is the fact that a lot of their wealth is tied to the multi-national corporations of the world.

4. Catholic priests do not take a vow of poverty except brothers and monks in monasteries. Priests even in small rural towns, will have a house [rectory], housekeeper, food and all expenses paid including lavish vacations,and much more. They do not live the lifestyle even of those around them. I can say the priest here even living in a more economically depressed area, lives a lifestyle much higher up then most around him. Oh and the Pope lives in a little apartment? Give me a break...new cars, prada sunglasses, extensive world travel, 2 month vacation at a CASTLE, SERVANTS and lackeys to serve every whim, his own ARMY of bodyguards.....please!


5. speaking of Cortez and paganism, most of South America is still essentially pagan with even the Marian apparitions being linked to pagan temples and NAMES.

The Virgin of Guadalupe, is just an updated version of the pagan Aztec goddess Tonantzin.

[Aloysius]

1. wow, must be easy for you. just detach yourself from all of Christian history and every Christian Church so you're impervious to any of the same types of attacks you make on our Church. Brilliant.

Both of you come out of the protestant tradition, and thus are accurately labeled as existing within Protestantism. But whatever.

2. I condemn greediness done by any Christians in any denomination especially when they use Christianity towards their own greedy means. That does not mean I condemn the use of very valuable things in worshipping Christ (just as the woman who annointed Christ with expensive oils which Judas didn't like) or even the large amounts of lands and properties owned for the sake of doing good work and providing places of constant prayer.

3. We'd have to go through these historical incidents one by one. Certainly not every action of the Vatican has been good, it's run by sinners. As regards its need to have some wealth: without that wealth it couldn't do the vast number of charitable works it does throughout the world.

4. The general rule has always been (not saying it hasn't been abused, but it's been a general guideline) that priests live in the same conditions as their average parishiner. Missionaries live as well as the people in the places they go to. Now, oftentimes we'll have rich converts who donate large estates to bishops, sometimes priests, but for the most part the parish priest lives in the rectory connected to the parish and is paid according to the average income of their parishiners.

As a matter of fact, a very old tradition says that a rich roman convert donated his mansion to Peter himself; and a first century roman mansion has recently been excavated with indications of Christian worship and inscirptions referencing Peter.

5. Those who adhere to Santeria, yes. But the majority of Catholics in Latin America know the difference between the worship owed to God and honor owed to the Saints.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Budge' post='1047305' date='Aug 21 2006, 01:07 PM']
The Virgin of Guadalupe, is just an updated version of the pagan Aztec goddess Tonantzin.
[/quote]
You have no idea

[Aloysius]

The Virgin Mary is the polar opposite of that demon god which demanded human sacrifice.

I think it's great the Christ was able to take all their misplaced devotion and worship to a demon and teach them to be devoted to his Mother and to worship Him.

[curtins]

So if your not protestants what are you, or rather, what do you 'classify yourselves as'.
I too condem any thing that uses any religion for greed etc
I can't make sense of your point #3. The language just aint workin for me.
Some priests were not priests all their life. Example: My pastor has a 50 inch flat screen and surround sound and drives around in a jaguar. He was in the military and worked for the government before his wife died and he became a priest. He gets a pension and has money from his past life. But for the most part priests live VERY modestly and get very little. Easy for you to sit and point ur finger.....
I don't know where you're getting your information about "lavish vacations"

The pope has a popemobile if thats what you mean about brand new cars- and thats to keep him from getting shot. Likewise the body gaurds.
Benedict is by no means traveling as much as JPII. And his traveling was not vacationing. It was going out to meet the faithful and the people that made up the church that he was head of. It was not 'I'm pope so I'll tour the world now for the heck of it'. But in your narrow view of things............


The Pope has his own money. If he wants to spend it on prada let him. Personally I'd rig up the Papal appartment with an xbox 360, an internet connection, subscription to xbox live, and a home theater kit.... but thats just me. Is he now the devil in your all authorative eyes because he likes fashion?

Likewise- because he takes a vacation? As do alot of people.

The castle is church property and has been for idk how long. Might as well use it. Its not like he's going and staying at Tides in Miami beach for how many thousand a night.



Get over it. Lets talk about doctrine and what matters- not what kind of sunglasses the Pope is wearing.

[mariahLVzJP2]

[quote name='stbernardLT' post='1046760' date='Aug 20 2006, 01:17 PM']
Wow, I know we don't have protestants talking about making money through religion. I think we've all seen TBN. I know pastors around here that are filthy rich (blessings from God) eventhough most of them set their own salary. They collect W2 from parishioners and make them feel horrible if they can't meet the tithe every month. While they flash, the fancy cars, houses, and jets. I've never read about one of the followers of Christ living so extravagant in the bible. Our priests make close to nothing and our pope lives in a little apartment, but we are rollin in the dough. It seems to me like someone has a beam stuck in their eye.

How about the "Mega Churches". Forty thousand people at one time. Now that is some cash mister Olstein. Forget about the fact that there is no possible way to make sure all the spiritual needs of 40,000 people are being met, let's past the tray (or should I say dump truck).

Our priests take a vow of poverty, what do your pators take, a vow of prosperity. Even if they have families to support, they are still abusing their leadership role.
[/quote]

[Eutychus]

[quote]
Both of you come out of the protestant tradition, and thus are accurately labeled as existing within Protestantism. But whatever. [/quote]

Sorry I don't.

And you know what I am HOW?

Not one memember of my "ekklesia" has EVER protested Rome.

[quote]Our priests make close to nothing and our pope lives in a little apartment,[/quote]

Little apartment? Have you EVER been to Rome and the Vatican? I have. That little apartment is bigger than most aparment complexes, furnished with umpty million dollars of artwork. Not to mention the entire CASTLE that he has for summer vacation.

[img]http://www.nathanhuber.com/blog/archives/papal%20apartments.jpg[/img]

Just a little hallway ceiling....

[img]http://www.cs.unm.edu/~aaron/images/europeweb/VaticanPapalApartmentsChamb.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.castelgandolfo.org/Sito/Entra%5FIn%5FComune/Link/Guida_turistica/html_ing/ville_pontificie_ing.htm"]THAT LITTLE NOTHING OF A SUMMER HOME -> CLICK HERE[/url]

Edited August 21, 2006 by Eutychus

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1047451' date='Aug 21 2006, 04:02 PM']Not one memember of my "ekklesia" has EVER protested Rome.[/quote]That's funny. I thought that the majority of your church members were ex-Catholics.

[Oik]

I am still trying to figure out why it is always assume that the Catholic Church exploited people to get money, wealth, and works of art.



I know plenty of people who give things to thier churches, donate money, and who are superb artists that do not mind beautifying thier house of worship.

Maybe you two can give a response to that.

[Mitchell_b55]

[color="#CC0000"][b]In the course of this discourse, I have resorted to insult, and have become rather annoyed, forgive me, I have been stretched taut, and have broken. [/b] [/color]

Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me."

But without money, one cannot mount a mission. If you sell everything to give to the poor you won't even have a Bible. ... Nor equipment to place on street corners. The Catholic Church does things in a bigger way, but who can say that the treasures of the Vatican, such as the Sistine chapel, and its works of art would be better off in private hands rather than on public display. If a Christian were in charge of what the city owns, would he sell off the library to feed the poor? What about the art museums? Governments and established religions both serve a useful function in preserving art works that feed the mind of the population, and selling them off to feed stomachs will provide only temporary relief to hunger, with a permanent loss of historical and beautiful artwork from public view. [Presumably, if money were obtained from selling the artwork, some non-Christians would have to buy it, as no Christian could own it; therefore you would be depending on the money from non-Christians to feed the poor.]

By the way, we can't discuss real estate holdings of the Church, because an institution with, according to the Annuario Pontificio, 1.114 Billlion people world wide. Angelo Cardinal Sodano, released the yearbook, which state that in, 2001, the number of priests declined by 111 compared to the previous year. However the number of seminarians increased 1.5% in the same period, which Africa and Asia making a disproportionately large contribution. On the whole, the number of people committed to pastoral activities of the Catholic Church are 4,270,069, distributed so: 4649 bishops, 405,067 priests (of which 266,448 diocesan), 29,204 permanent deacons, 54,970 monks and friars, 792,317 nuns, 31,512 members of secular institutes, 139,078 laic missionaries, and 2,813,252 catechists. To the number of active nuns, one must also add 51,973 nuns who have chosen a contemplative life. These statistics aren't precise, they may be slightly higher and lower today, since they are from 2001.

These people need a place to live, and facilities to practices their ministry and functions in. Not to mention that their are 219,655 parishes. 1.114 billion people need 219,655 Churches to practice their faith in. Not to mention residencies for clerical or religious members of the Church.

Vatican Assets are not entirely known, now understand the difference between assets and the budget. Vatican assets are estimated at a range from $1.5 billion to $15 billion and more. They include works of art and buildings which for the most part cannot be sold. Large parts of the Vatican's assets are in securities and gold reserves. Additional assets are in rental revenues, the sale of coins, stamps and souvenirs as well as monies from church taxes in the dioceses and the so-called Peter's Pence - a special, annual collection for the pope and his personal charities.

Despite the wealth, the Vatican's budget has shown a deficit of several million dollars since 2001 but which is secured by assets. In 2003 the Vatican showed a deficit of $11,853,206. That's just a small loss to you, Budge. Of course, you assume the Vatican is making a profit, other than miniscule museum entrance charges, on it's massive art collections, many of which are not on public display, but must nonetheless be cared for, and housed. The Vatican Secret Archive has collections of manuscripts that are of priceless historical value, and they have to be preserved. Of course, two thousand years of history means nothing to you, even though our cultural history keeps many people from seeing the corrupt edifice of tawdry commercialism that is bursting the moral foundation of society.

2005 was a lucky year for the Church, she actually made a $12,000,000 dollar surplus at the close of the year. This hadn't happened it a while, and probably had much to do with the Papal election, even though the death of John Paul II, the Conclave and the accommodating of huge crowds of faithful, and tourists amounted to 8.9 million dollars, which by the way is about a ladle full of the ocean of the worlds wealth. The cardinals were given the results of the 2005 Peter's Pence collection, which is not part of the budget since the money is used by the pope for charity, disaster relief and aid to churches in developing countries.

[quote]In 2005, donations amounted to $59,441,654.64, an increase of 14.95% compared to the previous year.

The Holy Father allocated these resources to charitable endeavors to express the Apostolic See's and the universal Church's closeness to the populations of several countries hit by disasters such as floods, famine, war and illnesses.

The Holy Father also used these funds to support numerous initiatives of Third World ecclesial communities, oriented to human promotion and assistance to the poorest local Churches.[/quote]

Just because you feel that to build a Church to God, by the way read about Solomon, and that 176 years of devoted work on this massive structure amounting to $48,000,000; and annual up-keep being about $39,000, a sum that is only exceeded when actual renewals of the artistic features [such as gilding, repairing the pavement, and extensive marble work on the pilasters] becomes necessary, means that the Church is greedy, you need to reorder your thoughts, a Church is a tribute to God, reflecting the devotion we have for him. Precious metals, jewels, and the finest stone, are sacrificed to him.

As for the pomp of the Papal Court, perhaps you have never tried to be the leader of 1.114 billion people, if you lived in rags, what respect would you receive, and if the Pope was not a sovereign of the Vatican State, he would have no temporal power, and not having temporal power would mean that he may have to abandon 1.114 billion constituents, if civil rulers, decide they don't like the Church, as a sovereign he is made equal to them in a secular sense. This has nothing to do with his own want of material possessions, even though it can, that is not the principal driving it. If you observe the personal lifestyle of Pope Benedict it is not that flamboyant, and try looking at the lifestyles of the last centuries popes, and even father back, Medieval Papal corruption is not present in these men's daily lives. It actually makes me furious that such noble individuals can be slandered by a piece of work like you, who have no basis for any argument you present, and argue in a futile manner, by dragging the argument from topic to topic so as to confuse the debate and actually come to no conclusion whatever.

I am sick and tired of listening to these old arguments, of course the Vatican has money, look at the statistics, a bureaucracy of that size is going to need a little bit of money, for maintenance, not to mention that Catholic charities, whether you feel they are social organism that behaves like a leech, but out billions of dollars in relief help, mission work, and health care for the terminally ill and the not so terminally ill. If you have an issue with priceless, meaning that no one wants it, art that doesn't make a profit and the distribution of collected funds to charitable organizations that do more good than your incessant ranting then I pity you for your shallow and undeniably hard heart and blackened soul.

I like to be nice, and charitable in conversation, but you try without regard for the wellbeing of your fellows to slander the organism of the Catholic Church, which you can’t successfully argue doctrinally, and thus resort to mindless libel against it. This is not human compassion it is human stupidity and human evil, even Dan Brown in his Da Vinci code admitted the good the Church does. Even if you think the Church is damning souls to hell, with so-called paganistic doctrines, it nonetheless makes the world a better place.

Some one quoted once about the Churches real estate holdings, 'that his church probably ranks second only to the United States Government in total annual purchase.'

That is actually sort of sad that the United States Government which only has 299,532,769 citizens, and it has more real estate holding that the entire Roman Catholic Church, with its 1,114,000,000 members.

Dan Brown, enthusiastically put forth as it had significance that Opus Dei recently built a $47 million National Headquarters at 243 Lexington Avenue in New York City. I would like to see Dan Brown, try to construct anything for less than $47 Million dollars, on LEXINGTON AVENUE, NEW YORK CITY. As realtors constantly preach, "Location, Location, Location."

Your vile arguments are baseless drivel, produced by the bitterness that you possess for an institution that is obviously the stalwart foundation of a large majority of world’s people, a foundation that taken in secular sense, promotes virtue, charity, and faith in something that humbles us, and makes us better people. Even if God didn’t exist, then the Church is still doing something worth doing.

As for history perhaps you should read real history. Most modern scholars admit that the majority of history regarding the inquisition and the crusade is anti-Catholic propaganda, and even if it was as terrible as you say, "The many grave disturbances which the Church experienced in the Middle Ages were not true crises since through them all the Church was never in danger of changing its nature or dissolving itself into something else. Low moral standards among the clergy and lust for riches and power disfigure the face of the Church , but do not attack its essence by attempting to alter its foundations."

As for your affiliation, there are three Christian Groups, THREE. Protestants, Catholics, and Eastern Sectaries, otherwise known as the Orthodox faiths which are almost entirely confined to the Slavic and Greek ethnicities. Protestants exist because:

Let us return to English etymology: Protestant, French, from German, from Latin prōtestāns, prōtestant- present participle of prōtestārī, to protest.

To protest, let me not be sarcastic, but I have never heard you protest. As for the definition of the word, maybe you should pick up a valuable and trustworthy reference material, a dictionary.[list=1]
[*]A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers.
[*]A member of a Western Christian church adhering to the theologies of Luther, Calvin, or Zwingli.
[*]1. One of the German princes and cities that supported the doctrines of Luther and protested against the decision of the second Diet of Speyer [1529] to enforce the Edict of Worms [1521] and deny toleration to Lutherans.
[/list]You fit right in definition one, and perhaps in definition two. Furthermore, the literal meaning is "a person challenging an action of an administrative agency", of which you are a prime example. I am tired of you ignorance, you will not listen to sense, reason, and will not understand faith.

In response to the newest post, by Oik, I know a Catholic Church that has been built brick by brick, at no request from the clergy, by laymen, who have actually abandoned their homes and moved onto the residence. The man we call "the marble man" moved nearly 800 miles so he could help build, by hand, a huge marble alter, and baptismal font, another man moved out of his home to do the stain glass windows. The parishioners donate graciously for a place to glorify God, since... isn't that what we were created for, God's glorification.

I am done, and I need a coffee, and need to go check my blood pressure.

AN ARGUMENT LIKE THIS NEEDS HARD FACT, SOMETHING YOU BUDGE, AND EUTYCHUS DO NOT HAVE, AND BRETHREN DO NOT FEEL ASHAMED OF THE ELEGANCE AND WEALTH OF THE CHURCH, WHAT SHAME CAN COME FROM THE GLORIFICATION OF GOD AND THE MISSIONARY AND CHARITABLE SPIRIT OF AN INSTITUTION THAT IS HERE TO SAVE SOULS. YOU DO NOT NEED TO MAKE EXCUSES, MY BRETHREN.

Edited August 21, 2006 by petrus_scholasticus

[curtins]

Btw the whole building is not the Pope's appartment.

[Mitchell_b55]

The Papal Apartments have seven large rooms plus a private chapel, medical suite, an office for the Papal Secretary, a roof garden and staff quarters for the nuns who run the Papal Household. It is from the window loggia of the apartment's study that the pope greets pilgrims to St Peter's Square.

The rooms were originally highly decorated with rich ornate furnishings. However following the Second Vatican Council Pope Paul VI, who as a young bishop had once suggested that popes should live in more modest rooms in the Lateran Palace away from the Papal Court, had the private rooms in the Vatican Apartments stripped of all ornate decor, preferring what he viewed as a form of monastic simplicity. He also redesigned the private chapel. However the latter redesign was criticized in some quarters, as excessively representative of architectural designs fashionable in the 1970s but which are no longer popular or liked.

The Papal Apartments were renovated in 2005, following the death of Pope John Paul II. In the renovations a library was added to accommodate the 20,000 books of Pope Benedict XVI. The three month long project included upgrading electrical wiring, plumbing, as well as cosmetic upgrades, such as wallpaper and furnishings.

The pope is in official residence from October to June of each year. From July to September the Pope is officially in residence at Castel Gandolfo.

[From Wikipedia]

I'm not sure why you insist on the corruption of the Papacy in this day and age, I heard a news reporter during the conclave throw out the question, "What cardinal would actively seek to inherit the vast global headache called the Catholic church?" I find it interesting that you find a position that is so stressful, and a position that warrants comments like, "To gain the papacy is to gain an early death," one that causes illness to become worse, and the ill-less to become ill, a position that is physically, mentally, politically, and spiritually tyring and painful to be a position someone would want just because of the circumstances of luxury.

Edited August 21, 2006 by petrus_scholasticus