Just something interesting.

[uruviel]

Well, one thing I've always wondered is, how is there evil in the world if God created everything? Why did God create sin? Well, my catechism book explains it clearly. Whereas God created everything, He didn't create evil. Evil is not SOMETHING. Evil is a lack of something, evil is a nothing basically. But more importantly, evil is a lack, God created everything, but He didn't create evil because, [i]evil is a lack. [/i]

Now, here's something interesting, not everything we imagine, God will create. I'm not saying He has a fault, or a lack of something, He is an infinetly perfect being, perfect and excisting in Himself. Not everything we imagine, God can create. Do you think God could create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift? No. That is a contradiction of terms, it is a contradiction of reality, and God doesn't contradict reality. Now I suppose He could, for He can do anything, but we cannot comprehend a way for God to contradict reality. We cannot comprehend a rock that is too heavy for a perfect being to lift.

Raise your hand if you understood any of that.
if so. Please put forth your opinions or arguements or however you want to go about replying.
God Bless!
-uruviel

[IcePrincessKRS]

I understood the "evil is a lack of a positive good" part... I learned all that in Theology101.... your second paragraph confused me. I think I need a nap, though...

[OLAM Dad]

There is no 'hands up' smilie but my hand is raised.

God can not do all things. For example, Jesus doen't just choose not to sin, he is [i]incapable [/i]of it because it is contrary to His nature. Another example; God can not create something that is both a rock and a tree. Aristotle's Law of Noncontradiction states that, "One cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time." Aristotle gets credit for this law when in reality it is God's law defined by Aristotle.

[uruviel]

I believe that is true, but saying God is incapable of something, sounds as if He has a flaw. It is not that He has a lack of anything, it is that God will not contradict reality. I would not go so far as to say, God cannot create both a tree and a rock in one substance/object. I would say that he will not contradict reality, He will not do it. God is not incapable of anything in the terms of having a flaw.

[Tarcisius]

When it soudns like a fault to say that God cant contradict reality it is only because of simple language.

[Franimus]

the underlying question for the heavy rock question is "can God impose limits on Himself and his power?"
And I wasn't even sitting on the toilet when I thought of that!

[uruviel]

No, God is not limited by His own laws. It is so hard to discuss this with out language and understanding being SO impossilby limited!! Why can't I just leave it alone and not always try to solve everything? anyways,
God CAN impose limits if He wants, He can do anything. But as to say God IS limited is wrong, He is not limited.

[Pontifite 7 of 10]

Wow. You have [color="#993399"]DEEP [/color] thoughts.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Seems to me that weight is a human concept within the created world. God transcends His creation.

[bball33]

You know, I heard a great response about why evil is in the world:

What is evil? Evil is the absence of good, is it not? Hence, evil is not something that God created, rather, it is something directly tied to the existence of good. To put it simply, God is good (obviously, lol). But where there is no God (that being a lack of awareness of Him, or denial of Him), there is the absence of good, so evil can exist. Much like darkness cannot exist without light. Darkness is not something in and of itself, it is the absence of light. You cannot create darkness without taking away the light, just like you cannot create evil without the absence of God. Hope this helps. It may be confusing, but hopefully the analogy of light and darkness helps.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='uruviel' post='1049917' date='Aug 24 2006, 07:06 PM']
No, God is not limited by His own laws. It is so hard to discuss this with out language and understanding being SO impossilby limited!! Why can't I just leave it alone and not always try to solve everything? anyways,
God CAN impose limits if He wants, He can do anything. But as to say God IS limited is wrong, He is not limited.
[/quote]

You and William of Ockham would be good pals. If you start with God as freedom you come to this conculsion, and I have to say, philosophically it is weak and seems to violate the principle of non-contradiction.

Instead let suggest to you that God is Love. Also, True Freedom is not primarily a freedom of unlimited choices. True freedom, positive freedom, is a[b] freedom to do as one ought. [/b] God, being fully actualized, is totally free to do as He ought as He is LOVE.

[uruviel]

[quote name='michaelismycn' post='1050003' date='Aug 24 2006, 09:00 PM']
You know, I heard a great response about why evil is in the world:

What is evil? Evil is the absence of good, is it not? Hence, evil is not something that God created, rather, it is something directly tied to the existence of good. To put it simply, God is good (obviously, lol). But where there is no God (that being a lack of awareness of Him, or denial of Him), there is the absence of good, so evil can exist. Much like darkness cannot exist without light. Darkness is not something in and of itself, it is the absence of light. You cannot create darkness without taking away the light, just like you cannot create evil without the absence of God. Hope this helps. It may be confusing, but hopefully the analogy of light and darkness helps.
[/quote]

No it makes most perfect sense, you explained it very clearly, thank you for that insight!

[quote name='Theoketos' post='1050112' date='Aug 24 2006, 11:19 PM']
You and William of Ockham would be good pals. If you start with God as freedom you come to this conculsion, and I have to say, philosophically it is weak and seems to violate the principle of non-contradiction.

Instead let suggest to you that God is Love. Also, True Freedom is not primarily a freedom of unlimited choices. True freedom, positive freedom, is a[b] freedom to do as one ought. [/b] God, being fully actualized, is totally free to do as He ought as He is LOVE.
[/quote]

Ok, your probably right but I don't know who William of Ockham is....
I cannot argue this, for in my own arguement I don't have a point, my mind can't understand God and His abilities. Perhaps you are right that God isn't always just doing what He can do, He's doing what He ought to do, but wait, God can't do what he not ought do. So When I say He's not just doing what He can do, that's not true because doing right is the only thing God can do, He is a perfect being in Himself and is incapable of doing something that lacks. Doing evil. Or making a wrong decision, everything to Him is a right decision, you know it's funny how I speak like I know what I'm talking about. I'm making this opinoins on my own self, which isn't very smart. Ah, I'm just trying to describe it as best I percieve it. So, to say God CAN'T contradict reality is a falsity in my mind, but to say God will not contradict reality betters suites me. He doesn't have a lack there of. In Gods mind everything is so different I can't even begin to try to explain or understand, none of us can understand.


[quote name='Pontifite 7 of 10' post='1049942' date='Aug 24 2006, 07:43 PM']
Wow. You have [color="#993399"]DEEP [/color] thoughts.
[/quote]

allot of ppl tell me I think too much.

Edited August 25, 2006 by uruviel

[rkwright]

there is a very indepth discussion of the ideas you have posted somewhere in the phorum...

check it out

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=42535&hl=rock"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...535&hl=rock[/url]

theres also some good discussion on the problem of evil around here too. I wrote a paper on it a while back and was bouncing ideas off people around here who provided some outstanding feedback.

[son_of_angels]

Well, here's my thought. Unlike God, our choices and even many of our attributes do not define who we actually are per se. With God however, who has absolute being, and is ineffably simple, the relationships he forms, the decisions he makes, and the attributes of himself are in fact also descriptions of God's very being.

Imagine this. If I choose not to lift a rock, I maintain a certain potentiality to in fact lift that rock sometime in the future. For all that I decide not to do something, I cannot remove myself of the potentiality to do it, because I am a created being and not a Creator, and do not change the reality of something by my very being. Hence, my decision not to lift a rock has no substantial effect on me and that rock.

God is different. He possesses no potentiality, and therefore everything he chooses to do or not to do in fact is the very definition of himself.

Further, we know that God does not choose to do everything that we perceive could be the case. God chose, in taking human form, to be subject, generally, except the whole ascension bit, to the laws of gravity. He could, in a human sense, have chosen not to do so. But to God, whose choices are in fact attributes of his nature, there was no "could" only a "do."

My point here is that there is no "could" or "should" or "might have" with God. Take this axiom for example, from the book "The Prayer of Love and Silence" by a Carthusian, "To be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is to be God, though we cannot fully grasp that statement." God could not be other than what he chooses to be, which seems to be the very definition of God himself.

[heavenseeker]

i under stood it, i just dont understand why you posted it.

[Guest phatdaddy]

woops. Wrong account
-uruviel

Edited August 28, 2006 by phatdaddy

[uruviel]

haha. I found it interesting, I wanted to discuss it, see what y'alls perspectives were on it.

[WillT]

Ooo! A fun Philisophical thread!

[quote name='uruviel' post='1049818' date='Aug 24 2006, 03:35 PM']
Now, here's something interesting, not everything we imagine, God will create. I'm not saying He has a fault, or a lack of something, He is an infinetly perfect being, perfect and excisting in Himself. Not everything we imagine, God can create. Do you think God could create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift? No. That is a contradiction of terms, it is a contradiction of reality, and God doesn't contradict reality. Now I suppose He could, for He can do anything, but we cannot comprehend a way for God to contradict reality. We cannot comprehend a rock that is too heavy for a perfect being to lift.
[/quote]

Interesting thoughts. I have a question in regards to your definition of reality, however. God HAS/DOES contradict(ed) reality as understood from the human standpoint (i.e. the standpoint of human understanding/experience). For example, a virgin birth does not happen in our understanding of reality, nor does water turn to wine, nor a man rise from the dead after three days, nor does bread and wine change substantially into flesh and blood. All of these actions (and many others like them), however, God has/does indeed perform(ed).

[quote name='son_of_angels' post='1051378' date='Aug 26 2006, 11:01 PM']
Imagine this. If I choose not to lift a rock, I maintain a certain potentiality to in fact lift that rock sometime in the future. For all that I decide not to do something, I cannot remove myself of the potentiality to do it, because I am a created being and not a Creator, and do not change the reality of something by my very being. Hence, my decision not to lift a rock has no substantial effect on me and that rock.
[/quote]

I disagree. When you walk past said rock at 3:00 PM on August 27th, 2006 and you choose not to pick it up you have indeed lost potentiality. Namely you have lost the potentiality to pick up said rock at 3:00 PM on August 27th, 2006 as this exact moment will never again be present! It also has a substantial effect upon both you and the rock. To imagine this, first let's give the rock a name. I'll call it "Bob the rock". Had you picked up "Bob the rock", you would be "man with Bob the rock" as it stands however, you are "man without Bob the rock". This is a substantial difference in my opinion because it changes your potentiality. If you pick up "Bob the rock", you no longer have the pontentiality to pick up "Bob the rock" at 3:00 PM on August 27th, 2006 as you have actualized your pontential, destroying it by virtue of the very definitiopn of potentiality. You also now have many new potentialities concerning "Bob the rock". For example you have the added pontentiality of throwing "Bob the rock" at my head. If I have misunderstood your point please explain it again for me.

P.S. This is fun stuff!

[son_of_angels]

My argument then would be that time never has any real potentiality, at least in as far as we experience it within our own given frame of reference. We always experience time while it is active, and never while it is dormant, or there would be a contradition; we would be moving in time in order to experience the potentiality of time itself, which cannot be the case, since something which is potential is not in fact happening.

Get it? I'm not sure if I am correct, especially at this time of the night...

Anyway, to place your example within the above hypothesis, an action like "picking up the rock" in terms of potentiality cannot be considered potential or in motion with regards to time. If I say, I am going to pick up Bob the rock at 3:00, that is no different in terms of the potentiality of yourself and the rock than saying, I am going to pick up the rock, b/c time is not, unless you are God and can experience time in multiple fashions, a frame of reference for potentiality....

maybe that's what I'm trying to say...

[Groo the Wanderer]

Let us not forget that God created time, and as such is not bound by time. If God so chooses at 4pm, from our frame of reference, to pick up Bob the Rock at 3pm, from our frame of reference, he most certainly can and could do so.

For God, time is irrelevant. Remembering this helps our heads to not hurt so much when we try to comprehend the fact that God has no beginning and has no end.

To impose ANY limits on God, including that of the flow of time is futile.