The Red Cross Ambulance Incident

[stephen]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051154' date='Aug 26 2006, 07:50 PM']
Stevie,
It IS ignorant to not stop at a check point, even if you are an ambulance. [/quote]

It is ignorance to stop ambulances at checkpoints in an emergency situation.

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051154' date='Aug 26 2006, 07:50 PM'] It's a known fact that terrorists have used ambulances to transport arms and combatants. [/quote]

This is the fourth time you've made this claim without offering a shred of evidence in support.

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051154' date='Aug 26 2006, 07:50 PM'] All vehicles are checked as a matter of course. Ambulances don't get the same scrutiny as other vehicles.[/quote]

It seems to me that holding up an ambulance until the wounded or pregnant person inside dies is more than scrutiny. You're making a false claim here.

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051154' date='Aug 26 2006, 07:50 PM'] Again, you point the finger the wrong way. It's the COWARD Hezbollay that hide behind pregnant women when they use ambulances. it's the COWARD Hezbollay that are responsible for putting innocent people in harms way by using hospitals, schools, and ambulances for military purposes.
[/quote]

That's the fifth time you've made that claim without offering a shred of evidence without support.

Of all the disingenuous Zionist war crimes apologists here on this Catholic web forum, I must give you credit for at least choosing an appropriate screename, Anomaly.

[Jaime]

[quote]The Amnesty International report pertains to another Israeli missile attack on an ambulance from 1996. You're apparently conflating that incident with the most recent Israeli attacks on ambulances from 3 weeks ago.
[/quote]

No.. Because your link still doesn't work, (It goes to a "not found" page) I went and researched Amnesty's take on the latest event.

[quote]It matters not whether a missile caused the hole, of whether the vent was blown off by machine gun fire or some other means. I'm not going to get mired in inconsequential details. What concerns me is that the Israelis attack ambulances, not what weapons they use to do it.[/quote]

It might not matter to you sport. But when it comes to the truth, it matters a lot! Here is what the ambulance driver reported

[quote]`A big fire came toward me, like in a dream. I thought I was dying, at first," Shaalan said. ``Then I opened my eyes, and I could see. I thought everyone in the ambulance was dead."

A rocket or missile had made a direct hit through the roof, Shaalan said, severing one patient's right leg. Shaalan took cover in a nearby building.[/quote]

Except that in light of the evidence provided in my working link, that pretty much is a bunch of bs.

[quote]You're spreading propaganda yourself and attempting to get the Israelis off from their war crimes with two-bit lawyers tricks, "Church Scholar."
[/quote]

Lawyer tricks my patootie. Address the article posted Stephen. Oh wait, you can't. Because it provides logical information. The ambulance attack three weeks ago was faked.

Bring it sport. Read the article. Address the points. Its pretty compelling isn't it? Or would you prefer to be an apologist for terrorists?

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='stephen' post='1051310' date='Aug 26 2006, 10:14 PM']
This is the fourth time you've made this claim without offering a shred of evidence in support.
That's the fifth time you've made that claim without offering a shred of evidence without support.
[/quote]

Your article actually somewhat supports his claim

[quote]Independent observers interviewed by Amnesty International did suggest that Hizbullah may have misused ambulances, but did not provide specific examples to corroborate such suspicions. [/quote]

And now time for that absolute certainity.

-

hot stuff, if you check my last post or his first post, that should provide a working link.

Edited August 27, 2006 by CatholicCid

[stephen]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051294' date='Aug 27 2006, 12:07 AM']
I believe he means this link:

[url="http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/13/israel.lebanon.pm/ambulnce.mov"]http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/13/israel.le...pm/ambulnce.mov[/url]

But I believe we asked for your "absolute certainity" that the people in the 'ambulance' were innocent. I am quite interested to hear it.
[/quote]

Why, on a Catholic forum is it necessary to explain to people that [b]children,[/b] 3 of whom were killed in that Israeli attack on an ambulance, and 3 [b]women[/b] who were killed, are innocent?

Civilians, and particularly women and children, are [i]always innocent [/i] in war. It's absolutely unacceptable to Christians for women and children to be attacked militarily.

Your "morality" is not Christian, it's rabbinic. It's source is the anti-Christ Talmud of anti-Christ rabbinic Judaism.

Edited August 27, 2006 by stephen

[Jaime]

Oh I've seen that video clip before. You wanna know where? Its on the page that I've linked. And its completely refuted. Yet you Stephen refuse to address any of the points brought up by the article.

Zero

None

You just continue to blather and insult. (Now I'm starting to enjoy this) So come on Stephen. Let's see some dialogue!! Let's see some intelligent discourse from you! Address ANY of the points brought up by the article.

At least then I'll know you've read it.


Jigs up Stephen. You're true colors are showing through. You're a protester wannabe. Nothing more. You refuse to do research. You refuse to think critically. You just want to wave a flag and chant against Israel. You can't deal with the fact that Hezbollah has been doing wonders in the propaganda dept. You just keep getting spoonfed and saying "please sir can I have some more"

Here is more evidence of photography tampering and Hezbollah propaganda (Not that Stephen will read it. Too many big words I imagine)

[url="http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/opinion_columnists/article/0,2777,DRMN_23972_4912107,00.html"]http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/opin...4912107,00.html[/url]

[stephen]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1051316' date='Aug 27 2006, 12:17 AM']

It might not matter to you sport. But when it comes to the truth, it matters a lot! [/quote]

Then explain to us what moral difference it makes whether the Israelis attack an ambulance with a missile or whether they use automatic weapons or some other means. I'm interested to know the difference.


[quote name='hot stuff' post='1051316' date='Aug 27 2006, 12:17 AM'] Here is what the ambulance driver reported [/quote]

I haven't quoted the ambulance driver.


[quote name='hot stuff' post='1051316' date='Aug 27 2006, 12:17 AM'] Except that in light of the evidence provided in my working link, that pretty much is a bunch of bs.
Lawyer tricks my patootie. Address the article posted Stephen. Oh wait, you can't. Because it provides logical information. The ambulance attack three weeks ago was faked. [/quote]

The article attempts to create doubts. It proves nothing.

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1051316' date='Aug 27 2006, 12:17 AM'] Bring it sport. Read the article. Address the points. Its pretty compelling isn't it? [/quote]

No, it's apologetics for Israeli war crimes.

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1051316' date='Aug 27 2006, 12:17 AM']Or would you prefer to be an apologist for terrorists?
[/quote]

I see. When one defends against innocents who are shot at in ambulances, that's assumed to be"terrorist apologetics." Thanks for explaining your thought process, "Church Scholar."

Edited August 27, 2006 by stephen

[Jaime]

[quote]
Then explain to us what moral difference it makes whether the Israelis attack an ambulance with a missile or whether they use automatic weapons or some other means. I'm interested to know the difference. [/quote]


The ambulance driver said he was hit by a missile sport. I quoted it. You ignored it.

[quote]I haven't quoted the ambulance driver.
[/quote]

Nope I did. You ignored the quote sport

[quote]The article attempts to create doubts. It proves nothing.No, it's apologetics for Israeli war crimes. It compels me only to expose it as such.[/quote]

PLEASE DO SO!! That's what I'm waiting for. THAT'S why I started this thread. You haven't offered ANYTHING to refute it. How compelled are you?

Or are you not aware of the definition of compelled?


Come on Stephen!! I'm losing interest! You are showing yourself as a low rent protester wannabee. Come on man! Pick up the slack!

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='stephen' post='1051335' date='Aug 26 2006, 10:35 PM']
Why, on a Catholic forum is it necessary to explain to people that [b]children,[/b] 3 of whom were killed in that Israeli attack on an ambulance, and 3 [b]women[/b] who were killed, are innocent?

Civilians, and particularly women and children, are [i]always innocent [/i] in war. It's absolutely unacceptable to Christians for women and children to be attacked militarily.

Your "morality" is not Christian, it's rabbinic. It's source is the anti-Christ Talmud of anti-Christ rabbinic Judaism.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I see this as still avoiding the question.

You claimed to have "absolute certainity" that all the people were innocent civilians. Please provide this information.

As you told hot stuff, "you've made this claim without offering a shred of evidence in support."

I'm sad to say, but in today's times, women and children are not always civilians. Such as the war in Iraq where there were cases of women and children acting as suicide bombers.

[url="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/12/1213_041213_tv_suicide_bombers.html"]http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...de_bombers.html[/url]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_suicide_bomber"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_suicide_bomber[/url]
[url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1898856,00.html"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1898856,00.html[/url]
[url="http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0817/p12s01-woiq.html"]http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0817/p12s01-woiq.html[/url]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide...tinian_conflict[/url]
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm[/url]
[url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6889106/"]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6889106/[/url]

--

Though, I don't think the name calling, direct attacks, and insults are necessary by anyone.

Edited August 27, 2006 by CatholicCid

[stephen]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1051354' date='Aug 27 2006, 12:43 AM']
Oh I've seen that video clip before. You wanna know where? Its on the page that I've linked. And its completely refuted. Yet you Stephen refuse to address any of the points brought up by the article.

[/quote]

No, actually, the propaganda to which you refer makes reference to the absolutely undeniable fact that the Israelis attacked an ambulance in Lebanon in 1996 and calls it the "the supposed 1996 Israeli attack on an ambulance." It does not in any way refute the fact that the Israelis attacked an ambulance in 1996. That's a blatant lie, "Church Scholar." Unfortunately, I must remind you that God's eighth commandment forbids what you are attempting to do--bear false witness.

Here's video which documents the dead women and children inside the ambulance attacked by the Israelis in Lebanon in 1996 who's murder you are attempting to whitewash. Go to this site and click on the appropriate link:

[url="http://tyros.leb.net/qana/"]http://tyros.leb.net/qana/[/url]

You'll also want to see the video which documents the first Israeli massacre at Qana in which 106 mostly women and children were killed and 351 injured.

[Jaime]

So by totally avoiding the question, it leads me to believe that you acknowledge the fact that the "rocketing" of ambulances three weeks ago was most likely faked. That the Iraelis had nothing to do with it. That Hezbollah has duped you.


Since you are only concerned about talking about 1996.

[stephen]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051377' date='Aug 27 2006, 01:01 AM']
I'm sorry, but I see this as still avoiding the question.

You claimed to have "absolute certainity" that all the people were innocent civilians. Please provide this information. [/quote]

The women and children killed in the ambulance had no weapons and there were not even any claims made against them by the Israelis. Women and children are always assumed to be innocent and protected during war, except by the Israelis and "Catholics" such as yourself.

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051377' date='Aug 27 2006, 01:01 AM']As you told hot stuff, "you've made this claim without offering a shred of evidence in support."[/quote]

Yeah, that old game. Well you need to prove that you don't beat your wife, then. And have you proven that you didn't murder those people buried in your back yard? How can we know that your claims of innocence are true with absolute certainty?


[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051377' date='Aug 27 2006, 01:01 AM']I'm sad to say, but in today's times, women and children are not always civilians. Such as the war in Iraq where there were cases of women and children acting as suicide bombers.[/quote]

It's a tragedy that Israeli and US injustices have driven people who never behaved that way in the past to such despair, isn't it?

Nevertheless, this is a rare occurrence and in no way justifies killing women and children, which you appear to be attempting to do.

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051377' date='Aug 27 2006, 01:01 AM']Though, I don't think the name calling, direct attacks, and insults are necessary by anyone.
[/quote]

If this was just a political forum that might be true. But this is a Catholic forum and there are people here acting as Zionist propagandists under the guise of Catholics. That needs to be addressed directly for the sake of those who are being misled by such chicanery.

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1051419' date='Aug 27 2006, 01:37 AM']
So by totally avoiding the question, it leads me to believe that you acknowledge the fact that the "rocketing" of ambulances three weeks ago was most likely faked. That the Iraelis had nothing to do with it. That Hezbollah has duped you.
Since you are only concerned about talking about 1996.
[/quote]

No. I have firmly established the fact that the Israelis attack ambulances, therefore it is not at all unreasonable to believe that the recent Israeli attacks on ambulances have not been completely fabricated as you disingenuously claim.

Edited August 27, 2006 by stephen

[Jaime]

[quote]No. I have firmly established the fact that the Israelis attack ambulances, therefore it is not at all unreasonable to believe that the recent Israeli attacks on ambulances have not been completely fabricated as you disingenuously claim.
[/quote]



This level of bs has been entertaining.

You've done nothing to address the article. You've shown yourself for what you are. All you have is name calling and an anti semitic attitude. Nothing intelligent share!


I was hoping for more but oh well!

[stephen]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1051431' date='Aug 27 2006, 01:51 AM']


You've done nothing to address the article. [/quote]

Sure I have. I've shown that it doesn't matter whether a missile made the hole in the roof or not.

And I'm not obligated to address your propaganda to begin with. What concerns me is Israeli war crimes.

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1051431' date='Aug 27 2006, 01:51 AM']You've shown yourself for what you are. All you have is name calling and an anti semitic attitude. Nothing intelligent share!

[/quote]

I've demonstrated conclusively that the Israelis attack ambulances filled with innocent women and children. If you believe that to be "anti-semitic," that's your problem.

Edited August 27, 2006 by stephen

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stephen' post='1051310' date='Aug 26 2006, 10:14 PM']
It is ignorance to stop ambulances at checkpoints in an emergency situation.
This is the fourth time you've made this claim without offering a shred of evidence in support.
It seems to me that holding up an ambulance until the wounded or pregnant person inside dies is more than scrutiny. You're making a false claim here.
That's the fifth time you've made that claim without offering a shred of evidence without support.

Of all the disingenuous Zionist war crimes apologists here on this Catholic web forum, I must give you credit for at least choosing an appropriate screename, Anomaly.
[/quote]It's been proven to you that Hezzbollay use ambulances, and the 'bulls eye' ambulance story and pics are lies.
[url="http://www.standwithus.com/idf_videos.asp"]http://www.standwithus.com/idf_videos.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23785"]http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=23785[/url]
[url="http://www.middleeastfacts.com/weblog/israel/israel-bombs-un-observation-post-being-used-as-a-terrorist-shield/"]http://www.middleeastfacts.com/weblog/isra...rrorist-shield/[/url]
[url="http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin_ambulances_for_terrorists.php3"]http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/...terrorists.php3[/url]
[url="http://volokh.com/posts/1154237903.shtml"]http://volokh.com/posts/1154237903.shtml[/url]

Just to provide a few...

Even Amnesty Internationaly condemns both Isreal and Hezzbollays of war crimes. Isreal for targeting civillian infrastructure, and Hezzbollay for the COWARDICE of hiding among civillians, effectively using them as human shields.

2 wrongs don't make a right, it makes 2 wrongs.

Face it Stevie. You are a hate monger who is working to justify your chosen hate and de-justify others. You foster the continuation of evil.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Anomaly

[CatholicCid]

Eh, I think it's pointless to continue this debate.

I do find it funny though that his 1 article is "conclusive"
While the multiple responses, articles, ect... we post is all false.

[stephen]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051592' date='Aug 27 2006, 01:50 PM']I do find it funny though that his 1 article is "conclusive"
While the multiple responses, articles, ect... we post is all false.
[/quote]

The video that you ignore which shows a missile striking an ambulance full of women and children and which then documents the wounded and dead women and children inside the ambulance is conclusive evidence. I assume that's why you ignore it.

[url="http://tyros.leb.net/qana/"]http://tyros.leb.net/qana/[/url]


[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051592' date='Aug 27 2006, 01:50 PM']
Eh, I think it's pointless to continue this debate.[/quote]

I think the thread itself is pretty pointless. "Israel's" aggression against the defenseless nation of Lebanon itself is an unjust and disproportionate criminal action. And most of the alleged Catholics around here are searching for ways to incriminate the victims. It's despicable and very pointless.

Edited August 27, 2006 by stephen

[stephen]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051528' date='Aug 27 2006, 10:44 AM']
It's been proven to you that Hezzbollay use ambulances, and the 'bulls eye' ambulance story and pics are lies.
[url="http://www.standwithus.com/idf_videos.asp"]http://www.standwithus.com/idf_videos.asp[/url] [/quote]

This link shows video of a group of people attempting to escape attack by an Israeli helicopter by jumping into an ambulance. It claims the men are armed Hezbollah militants. The grainy black and white video shot from overhead from an IDF helicopter doesn't document this in any way I can tell. One must accept their claim on faith. I don't place any faith in the pathological liars of the IDF. All I see is a some people attempting to save their lives by fleeing an Israeli air assault by jumping in an ambulance.



[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051528' date='Aug 27 2006, 10:44 AM'][url="http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23785"]http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=23785[/url][/quote]

No article comes up at this link. But I should say the magazine, "Front Page Magazine" run by a bunch of case hardened Zionists is about as "unbiased" as the IDF video you supplied above.


[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051528' date='Aug 27 2006, 10:44 AM'][url="http://www.middleeastfacts.com/weblog/israel/israel-bombs-un-observation-post-being-used-as-a-terrorist-shield/"]http://www.middleeastfacts.com/weblog/isra...rrorist-shield/[/url] [/quote]

First of all, there's nothing about ambulances here. It's another Zionist apologetics job for the bombing of a UN camp. The UN workers at that camp informed the Israelis 10 times prior to and during the bombing and the Israelis continued to bomb the camp into oblivion. If you'd like to pursue this, I'm all for it. But this has nothing to do with ambulances. You're struggling.




[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051528' date='Aug 27 2006, 10:44 AM'][url="http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin_ambulances_for_terrorists.php3"]http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/...terrorists.php3[/url] [/quote]

I love your sources ... The Jewish World Review and that Zionist shill Michelle Malkin, the IDF and Front Page Magazine. All very "unbiased."

In any case, this piece of propaganda shows a seemingly incriminating picture of a man carrying a gun getting into a UN ambulance. If they showed the video that the frame was taken from you'd see that the men were fleeing from an Israeli attack and one of them was wounded. Hardly incriminating. Ambulances are meant to get medical attention for the wounded, are they not?

Oh, and by the way, this picture was taken in the West Bank as admitted in the article itself, so the men in the picture are not Hezbollah.

next up ...



[url="http://volokh.com/posts/1154237903.shtml"]http://volokh.com/posts/1154237903.shtml[/url]

These stock photos show some Arab looking men with a large truck-mounted gun seemingly posing for a picture near a building. What does this prove? I could show pictures of heavily armed IDF soldiers in civilian areas of the Israeli state all day long. Would that provide justification for bombing apartment buildings full of people in "Israel"? Somehow, I believe that you would say not.

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051528' date='Aug 27 2006, 10:44 AM']

Even Amnesty Internationaly condemns both Isreal and Hezzbollays of war crimes. Isreal for targeting civillian infrastructure, and Hezzbollay for the COWARDICE of hiding among civillians, effectively using them as human shields. [/quote]

Are the heavily armed Israeli soldiers that can be found on nearly every block in the Israeli state "cowardly hiding among civilians" and do they provide justification for bombing the civilian areas in which they are stationed? Somehow, I believe that you would say not. And btw, what does this have to do with ambulances?

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051528' date='Aug 27 2006, 10:44 AM'] 2 wrongs don't make a right, it makes 2 wrongs.[/quote]

That's an interesting point which you seem to not understand yourself.

You see, I'm not attempting to justify anything wrong. I'm calling out against the Israelis' attacks on innocent people. You're the guy attempting to justify attacks on ambulances and other civilian targets.

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1051528' date='Aug 27 2006, 10:44 AM']Face it Stevie. You are a hate monger who is working to justify your chosen hate and de-justify others. You foster the continuation of evil.
[/quote]

Face it Anomaly, you're an apologist for Zionist war crimes.

Edited August 27, 2006 by stephen

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='stephen' post='1051653' date='Aug 27 2006, 01:44 PM']
The video that you ignore which shows a missile striking an ambulance full of women and children and which then documents the wounded and dead women and children inside the ambulance is conclusive evidence. I assume that's why you ignore it.

[color="#FF0000"]I've watched it numerous times... I've even corrected your messed up link to it once... :
And for the documented... ect part... It shows one second clip of someone... It does not document anything.
I would still doubt the legitamancy of the ambulance.
[/color]

[url="http://tyros.leb.net/qana/"]http://tyros.leb.net/qana/[/url]
I think the thread itself is pretty pointless. "Israel's" aggression against the defenseless nation of Lebanon itself is an unjust and disproportionate criminal action. And most of the alleged Catholics around here are searching for ways to incriminate the victims. It's despicable and very pointless.
[/quote]

Just wondering, but you are not Catholic right?


[quote]One must accept their claim on faith.[/quote]
Just as one must accept the driver of the vehicle from your article was not a militant on faith.

Edited August 27, 2006 by CatholicCid

[stephen]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051677' date='Aug 27 2006, 04:44 PM']
I've watched it numerous times... I've even corrected your messed up link to it once ... And for the documented... ect part... It shows one second clip of someone... It does not document anything.


[url="http://tyros.leb.net/qana/"]http://tyros.leb.net/qana/[/url] [/quote]

The video documents the dead children inside the ambulance. I'm sorry that identifying this fact is so challenging to you.

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051677' date='Aug 27 2006, 04:44 PM'] Just wondering, but you are not Catholic right?[/quote]

And what have you based this very unperceptive musing upon? Is it because I'm not a rabid supporter of Zionist aggression, like so many of the "Catholics" here?


[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1051677' date='Aug 27 2006, 04:44 PM']Just as one must accept the driver of the vehicle from your article was not a militant on faith.
[/quote]

I see. So based upon the speculation that the driver of the vehicle [i]may have been[/i] a militant (and [i]all [/i] Arabs are suspect, really, aren't they?), then it's justified for the Israelis to shell the ambulance he's driving and kill 6 women and children inside it. Is that your point?

Let me explain something to you, "CatholicCid." Assuming the innocence of a person on faith is far more Christian than assuming their guilt on faith and then killing them and everyone else in their vicinity. People are presumed to be innocent until proven otherwise in the Christianized West.

But "Catholics" like yourself would like to bring us under the Talmudic system of double standards where only "Jews" receive the benefit of the doubt.

For the sake of the great Christians who founded the civilized West in justice, I will resist such efforts with every ounce of strength which God in His great mercy allows me.

Edited August 27, 2006 by stephen

[CatholicCid]

I see one body at the end of the clip.
Behind that body might be a man with a beard. I cannot tell. The quality is not very good. It is quite hard to identify anything.

I'm sorry, I'll rephrase my question. Would you care to say your religious affiliation?

Please do not make baseless attacks against me. I believe they are called "ad hominem" or something like that and against the forum rules.
They in no way help the debate and are just attempts to start a flame war.

Edited August 27, 2006 by CatholicCid