Why can't I find a good man?

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1269862' date='May 10 2007, 01:11 AM']Really? In recent years I've been wondering if people should put off dating until they are at least 18...
I didn't have a first serious boyfriend until I was 23.
I didn't know there was a specified ordered list -- I've never heard of this (aside from the obvious, putting God first and the general lesson of having the right priorities.) Where is that from? Just curious...[/quote]

i think it is in the catechism. i'll try to find it for you. kinda interesting and weird at first i know. they really lay it down to the detail. you'll find it does help a lot when discerning the will of God.. morals and ethics, etc.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1269862' date='May 10 2007, 01:11 AM']Really? In recent years I've been wondering if people should put off dating until they are at least 18...
I didn't have a first serious boyfriend until I was 23.
I didn't know there was a specified ordered list -- I've never heard of this (aside from the obvious, putting God first and the general lesson of having the right priorities.) Where is that from? Just curious...[/quote]

i think it is in the catechism. i'll try to find it for you. kinda interesting and weird at first i know. they really lay it down to the detail. you'll find it does help a lot when discerning the will of God.. morals and ethics, etc.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1269862' date='May 10 2007, 04:11 AM']Really? In recent years I've been wondering if people should put off dating until they are at least 18...
I didn't have a first serious boyfriend until I was 23.
I didn't know there was a specified ordered list -- I've never heard of this (aside from the obvious, putting God first and the general lesson of having the right priorities.) Where is that from? Just curious...[/quote]

I haven't had a serious dating relationship, yet.

[b]Johnnydigit[/b], great words of advice, I appreciate the time and effort that was put into your posts.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1269843' date='May 9 2007, 11:59 PM']hot stuff and Abby,

I make no secret about my desire for a family. I imagine it takes not having one to really appreciate it.

[b]If I knew I could handle the rest of my life without a wife and kids, I'd probably already be ordained[/b]. And I'm sure that holds true for countless others.

Knowing that I need a wife and kids is not setting myself up for unfillment, nor is it something that is secondary, nor is it cause for shame to want to see results from one's efforts; this is all simply the result of my discernment (and I wish people in general would stop questioning it!) coupled with the "corporate guy" mentality in me that is results-driven. And we need to reorient our whole modern discernment process AWAY FROM the Calvinistic notion of "God has hidden His will like it is an Easter egg in a hunt, and you need to spend the rest of your life searching for it" that has creeped into much young adult/singles ministry today and BACK TO the Catholic model of "what are you eligible for"/"what can you handle".

And considering that [b]the Bible itself recognizes the fact that not everyone can handle celibacy[/b] (and I really wish people would let that sink in), for the vast majority being married actually ASSISTS you in being the best Catholic one can be. I know that doesn't fit into today's modern psychobabble, but it does when we factor in God's Word. This is a fact that is lost in today's secular world.[/quote]
There is nothing wrong with desiring a family and marriage ... although I've gotten the same questioning comments from people. That really pissed me off after I converted. I really did consider religious life but know that isn't for me ... but I would get "knowing" looks and comments from people because I am single and older and obviously care deeply about my faith.

You're right on all the benefits that marriage can bring, and those benefits are definitely desirable. And you're right that the Bible recognizes that not everyone can handle celibacy.

The thing is, as much as I want to be married and have children, I can't force someone else to bend to my will on this. It has to come from God moving in his heart -- in BOTH our hearts. And while I don't see discernment in this as being that I somehow have to follow the clues to figure out, "Oh! It's Michael!", I do think that it's more than simply determining what I'm eligible for and what I can handle ... unless "what I can handle" includes determining whether I can handle being married to a specific person.

As far as the "results" aspect of it ... that conception of marriage as a "result" that I'm aiming for in trying to be the best Catholic I can be still makes me feel uncomfortable. I guess I don't see loving someone as being the outcome of some series of steps that I can take that will definitely result in a trip down the aisle. There's no guarantee that I'm going to find the right guy, and that if I do find him I won't make some dumbbutt move and blow it. And frankly, when I'm going about trying to live as a good Catholic I don't want to have in the back of my mind, "Maybe if I pray more, John will be attracted to my holiness and want to marry me."

I go to confession not so I can meet holy guys while I'm waiting in line, but to be right with God. I pray not so some guy will see me praying the rosary and be attracted but so I can build my relationship with God. I go to Mass not so I can get the number of the guy sitting three rows up but so I can participate in the mystery of the Eucharist. If, in doing these things to build holiness, I happen to meet a guy in the line for confession, then that's great. But the "result" I'm going for in being the best Catholic I can be is to strengthen my relationship with God and the church.

Yeah, it is no fun going to bed alone night after night. It is no fun going to friends' weddings and having the warring emotions of rejoicing over their happiness while wondering when or whether my time will come. And I love playing with my friends' children, but sometimes that ache wells up and I wonder if God will ever see fit to grant me the gift of a husband and family. The thing is, even if God does grant me that gift, there is nothing that says that I get to keep it for the rest of my life. I could get married and have beautiful children and they all be killed in a car crash in 10 years. Marriage is a great good, no doubt about it, but putting all my hopes in that basket ... it can't hold them. The bottom will break out. I can give my heart to a man, and he could drop it, shattering it into a thousand pieces.

If my whole goal was to get married and have children, I'd never be able to survive losing them if that were to happen. It's not that marriage and children are a bad goal, or that wanting them is shameful, it's just that my focus has to be appropriately set.

Thankfully, God gives the grace to handle whatever he calls us to do at a given point in our lives. I don't have to worry about whether I can handle single life forever, because God has given me the grace to do it right now, and I can trust that his grace will continue to be sufficient. Perhaps in the future, he'll give me the grace to handle being married.

Edited May 10, 2007 by Terra Firma

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1269857' date='May 10 2007, 12:24 AM']remember God is always the top priority, then your spouse, then your kids, then your family, then your friends, then your work, if i recall in that descending order.[/quote]

i think i left out one important thing - you. guess where you're supposed to go in the priority list?

God > spouse > kids > extended family > friends > world > work > you.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1269986' date='May 10 2007, 01:01 PM']There is nothing wrong with desiring a family and marriage ... although I've gotten the same questioning comments from people. That really pissed me off after I converted. I really did consider religious life but know that isn't for me ... but I would get "knowing" looks and comments from people because I am single and older and obviously care deeply about my faith.

You're right on all the benefits that marriage can bring, and those benefits are definitely desirable. And you're right that the Bible recognizes that not everyone can handle celibacy.

The thing is, as much as I want to be married and have children, I can't force someone else to bend to my will on this. It has to come from God moving in his heart -- in BOTH our hearts. And while I don't see discernment in this as being that I somehow have to follow the clues to figure out, "Oh! It's Michael!", I do think that it's more than simply determining what I'm eligible for and what I can handle ... unless "what I can handle" includes determining whether I can handle being married to a specific person.

As far as the "results" aspect of it ... that conception of marriage as a "result" that I'm aiming for in trying to be the best Catholic I can be still makes me feel uncomfortable. I guess I don't see loving someone as being the outcome of some series of steps that I can take that will definitely result in a trip down the aisle. There's no guarantee that I'm going to find the right guy, and that if I do find him I won't make some dumbbutt move and blow it. And frankly, when I'm going about trying to live as a good Catholic I don't want to have in the back of my mind, "Maybe if I pray more, John will be attracted to my holiness and want to marry me."

I go to confession not so I can meet holy guys while I'm waiting in line, but to be right with God. I pray not so some guy will see me praying the rosary and be attracted but so I can build my relationship with God. I go to Mass not so I can get the number of the guy sitting three rows up but so I can participate in the mystery of the Eucharist. If, in doing these things to build holiness, I happen to meet a guy in the line for confession, then that's great. But the "result" I'm going for in being the best Catholic I can be is to strengthen my relationship with God and the church.

Yeah, it is no fun going to bed alone night after night. It is no fun going to friends' weddings and having the warring emotions of rejoicing over their happiness while wondering when or whether my time will come. And I love playing with my friends' children, but sometimes that ache wells up and I wonder if God will ever see fit to grant me the gift of a husband and family. The thing is, even if God does grant me that gift, there is nothing that says that I get to keep it for the rest of my life. I could get married and have beautiful children and they all be killed in a car crash in 10 years. Marriage is a great good, no doubt about it, but putting all my hopes in that basket ... it can't hold them. The bottom will break out. I can give my heart to a man, and he could drop it, shattering it into a thousand pieces.

If my whole goal was to get married and have children, I'd never be able to survive losing them if that were to happen. It's not that marriage and children are a bad goal, or that wanting them is shameful, it's just that my focus has to be appropriately set.

Thankfully, God gives the grace to handle whatever he calls us to do at a given point in our lives. I don't have to worry about whether I can handle single life forever, because God has given me the grace to do it right now, and I can trust that his grace will continue to be sufficient. Perhaps in the future, he'll give me the grace to handle being married.[/quote]


Very nicely put, and emotional too.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1269843' date='May 9 2007, 10:59 PM']And considering that [b]the Bible itself recognizes the fact that not everyone can handle celibacy[/b] (and I really wish people would let that sink in), for the vast majority being married actually ASSISTS you in being the best Catholic one can be. I know that doesn't fit into today's modern psychobabble, but it does when we factor in God's Word. This is a fact that is lost in today's secular world.

(hot stuff, you must have heard about the high price of food at Wrigley field).[/quote]

not sure what you mean by quoting the passage about handling celibacy. you sure you got it in context? maybe he was referring more to consecrated life? because everyone is called to handle celibacy, even during marriage (i.e. NFP).

assisting your spouse to be a better Catholic is not just for the vast majority, but is actually a duty for all. you're supposed to help bring your spouse to God, to sainthood.

so you're supposed to be the best Catholic you can be before marriage by being celibate and going through proper discernment, during marriage by helping your spouse be the best Catholic they can be (and celibate at times), and after marriage by being celibate again.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1269843' date='May 9 2007, 10:59 PM']Knowing that I need a wife and kids is not setting myself up for unfillment, nor is it something that is secondary,[/quote]

but it *is* secondary to doing God's will. being the best Catholic you can be is doing God's will. having a family can be part of God's will too. remember the priorities - God, then family. what's my point? not sure, but i do konw that if God asked you to sacrifice your family for Him, you should do it, i.e. Abraham.

which brings up something i was discussing with a friend the other day. i was wondering if it was possible to neglect my future wife by focusing too much on God? i guess it's a careful balance.. and choosing a wife that can share and accept my devotion..

[XIX]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1270358' date='May 10 2007, 05:41 PM']but it *is* secondary to doing God's will. being the best Catholic you can be is doing God's will. having a family can be part of God's will too. remember the priorities - God, then family. what's my point? not sure, but i do konw that if God asked you to sacrifice your family for Him, you should do it, i.e. Abraham.

which brings up something i was discussing with a friend the other day. i was wondering if it was possible to neglect my future wife by focusing too much on God? i guess it's a careful balance.. and choosing a wife that can share and accept my devotion..[/quote]
See I disagree with your wording. Having a wife, if it is what you are called to do, is not secondary to serving God. It is doing God's will. I suppose that it is [i]subordinate/[i] to God's will. A good marriage or friendship or family must start and end with the Lord. And of course they must always be intertwined.

Edited May 11, 2007 by XIX

[johnnydigit]

yes the wording can be difficult. my point was, if God asks you to sacrifice marriage and family for whatever reason, you must do it. it is "secondary". if God asks you to marry and have a family, then it is of His will and is "intertwined" with Him being primary. just remember that if he later asks you to sacrifice them, you must realize they are again "secondary". i.e Abraham.

[Sojourner]

I think too that there is a difference between marriage being a high priority [i]when you're married[/i] versus marriage holding the same level of importance [i]before you're married[/i].

I'm single and a student, and right now that is God's call for my life. So I'm doing it, and within the call on my life for the moment I am working on growing in holiness and love. There are, let me tell you, plenty of opportunities for this, even without a husband and children. The call I'm following now didn't require me to take a vow of any sort, so I am open to change if and when that were to happen. But, I'm not making seeking out that change a priority. I guess I see it as a "bloom where you're planted" kind of thing ... sure, marriage would be great, and I could grow there ... maybe even more than I am growing here. But that's not where I'm called to be [i]right now[/i], today.

[XIX]

So Terra, is this kind of a "worry about today and let tomorrow take care of itself" sort of thing?

(i know that's kind of a major simplification)

Edited May 11, 2007 by XIX

[XIX]

I think this would be a great time to recommend "Christian Courtship in an Oversexed World: A Catholic perspective"

by Father T. G. Morrow.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='XIX' post='1271340' date='May 11 2007, 02:38 PM']So Terra, is this kind of a "worry about today and let tomorrow take care of itself" sort of thing?[/quote]
yep


that is my general philosophy, or at least I try for it to be.


That doesn't mean "don't plan for the future" but it does mean making the best of where you're at. I think we all struggle with "grass is greener" syndrome from time to time, but honestly there are hardships in whatever state in life you're in. I figure, I'm still struggling with holiness where I am, so I work on growing in love here, on being more selfless etc., and trust that God will provide for my future needs just as he now provides for the needs I currently have. Not that I always trust perfectly, mind you, but this is what I keep aiming for.

[johnnydigit]

to the original post - i remember back in highschool, before i knew anything about God or the church, i broke up with my girlfriend of about two years because i really was void of something. i didn't know what it was, but i needed to "find myself". i cared about her, loved her even, but i just needed "space". being in the same routine - class, study, sleep, talk to her, go on dates, etc. was getting really mundane. i needed to be alone to find what this "void" was. of course eventually i "died" and God raised me and revealed Himself to me.

so now that i've searched for so long and have found what i've been looking for - God within me, i'm ready to face the future with confidence. now once i come to a decision with my vocation, i'll be ready to face my spouse's future - whoever, or whatever it may be.

/clap