Ritualism Leads People AWAY from God

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1054743' date='Aug 31 2006, 06:58 PM']
don't call 'what' what? mushy mud pie or reconciliation? or apology or offensive? :
[/quote]


well i think its fine to call the Sacrament Reconciliation (although i don't, and i don't like it), But can you go to Reconciliation? it sounds weird. i usually go to confession....

[FerociousBadger]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1054584' date='Aug 31 2006, 03:14 PM']
So what does that have to do with anything?
[/quote]

It has to do with the fact that you don't have to goto church to be saved or even goto chuch to be a religious person. Jesus is in our hearts and no priest is needed to make a connection.

[Fidei Defensor]

I like that picture of the Holy Father.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1054650' date='Aug 31 2006, 04:24 PM']
In one perspective, putting too much emphasis on the Ritual (read Rubrics) would indeed lead someone away from God. How often have you seen Caths posting here asking "Can they do that?" "The priest/lector/acolyte/deacon said or did "X", does that make "Y" invalid?" "The priest didn't say Zs, but said Z. Did that make the Sacrament invalid?"

Can people's emphasis on the Rituals in the Catholic Religion lead them away from God?
Absolutely YES.

Is it a necessary outcome? Absolutely NO!

Can Rituals be an aid and a help to lead people to God? Absolutely YES!

Does Scripture support the use of Rituals in aiding people in their relationship with God? Yes, without a doubt. To claim otherwise would be to deny the historical acts in both the New and Old Testament.
[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1054509' date='Aug 31 2006, 01:01 PM']
QUOTE
"Romanism is largely a religion of ceremonials and rituals, and as such it is a far departure from the purity and simplicity of the gospel. The suppose blessing is mysterious and magical. No really intelligent participation is required on part of the people. They are largely spectators watching the pageantry and are supposed to be blessed just because they are there.

Elaborate ritual and ceremony, which theoretically are designed to aid the worshipper, have the opposite affect in that they tend to take the mind away from things which are spiritual and eternal and to center it on that is material and temporal. Artistic ritual and exquisite music often become ends in themselves and can easly become instruments which prevent the people from joining in the worship of God. The reason the Roman service tends to become more and more elaborate, liturgical and ritualistic is that the heart of the exercise true adoration of God, is missing and a persistent effortis made to fill the emptiness and unsatisfactoriness of it all by piling one ceremony and ritual upon anohther. But ironically, the more that is done, the more difficult it becomes to worship God, and so the vicious cycle goes round and round.
[/quote]
Where is this quote taken from, and why should we pay attention to or care about this particular person's opinion?

It just sounds like your standard ignorant protestant rant against the Catholic liturgy.

[chris]

If ritualism detracts away from God then I guess you dont say the Lord's Prayer. Its been prayed by all Christians the same ways for centuries. I know many protestant (my dear parents included) Who have a liturgy in their worship. All liturgy seems to be ritualistic, but it was made that way for a reason. Ritualism comes out in more than worship. We are ritualistic every year when we celebrate Thanksgiving and Christmas. And these holidays center around the Thanks of what GOD has given us and the Birth of Our Most Blessed LORD. How can these ritualistic holidays ( Turkeys, Christmas Tree's, presents.) detract away from GOD? Even in the Jewish Temple before Christ came it was ritualistic to sacrifice a lamb for the forgiveness of sins. Jacob has done it some much that his own son Issac wanted to sacrifice himself for the forgiveness of sins, but GOD provided the lamb for the ritualistic sacrifice.

[quote]Romanism is largely a religion of ceremonials and rituals, and as such it is a far departure from the purity and simplicity of the gospel.[/quote]

Ritualism is part of the Gospel.

Ritualism even comes out in our daily lives ( Hi, bye, I love you, whats up, etc.)

Budge we cant seem to let the small things spark more hatred for each other, can we?

Edited September 1, 2006 by Convert4888

[Norseman82]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1054748' date='Aug 31 2006, 06:07 PM']
All I want to know is, Budge, how and where do you come up with this stuff? And, did you spend your time away making a list of crazy ideas to post here?
[/quote]

Personally, I think she is married to Eutychus. Notice that they both went away about the same time last week and all of a sudden they both reappeared today?

[cmotherofpirl]

I suppose you never read Leviticus did you?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Ferocious Badger' post='1054751' date='Aug 31 2006, 06:13 PM']
It has to do with the fact that you don't have to goto church to be saved or even goto chuch to be a religious person. Jesus is in our hearts and no priest is needed to make a connection.
[/quote]

Then how can you "keep holy the Lord's Day?" Where do you go to receive Eucharist?

[KnightofChrist]

I would counter that you Budge lead people away from Christ. You only wish to "budge" us away from Holy Mother Church founded by Our Lord. You only point out what you see as failers in the church, be they made up, lies or misunderstandings. Rarely if every do you preach salvation, and if you do it is not without your down right hate of your brethren, who are Catholic.

[Winchester]

"Thou shalt think vomiting forth insults and moronic slurs and slanted opinions shall win over thine enemies." Book of Budgiot chap 7 verse 11


"Thou shalt batter thine enemies with unsubstantiated opinion, and thus thou shalt numbeth their minds, and they shall surrendereth to thine miserable tripe, and thine pastor shalt thereby own a Bently and a Bell Jet Ranger." 7;21

"Thou shalt returneth to thine own vomit, and thine enemies will tryeth to refute thee with logic, but being immune to logic, thou shalt triumpheth in thine own mind." 8; 23

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1054983' date='Aug 31 2006, 10:45 PM']
Personally, I think she is married to Eutychus. Notice that they both went away about the same time last week and all of a sudden they both reappeared today?
[/quote]
They had help from the mods booking their departure.

[Budge]

[quote]
It has to do with the fact that you don't have to goto church to be saved or even goto chuch to be a religious person. Jesus is in our hearts and no priest is needed to make a connection.[/quote]

Thank you FB...

Many here are upset that I am posting against ritualism. Religious Theatre keeps people addicted to RELIGION instead of Christianity.

Pomp and circumstance, church as a fashion parade, gold, silver and candles, fancy stained glass, lavish buildings, men dressed up in fancy silk gowns and lace, with "wide borders", liturgy "queens", all style and no substance.

Here is what is wrong with ritualism.

1. It draws peoples focus to THINGS--objects, music, pretty things, rather then to God.
Idolatry is often its outcome.

2. Downgrades preaching and Biblical exposition.

3. Puts the tradition of men above Gods commandments. {Purgatory is an example of one of those traditions of men}

4. Gets more and more elaborate as time goes on, providing even mroe distance and change from true worship as shown in the book of Acts.

5. Gets people to believe that ceremonies and rituals will save them.

6. Fogs out the true gospel.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1055129' date='Sep 1 2006, 09:43 AM']
Thank you FB...

Many here are upset that I am posting against ritualism. Religious Theatre keeps people addicted to RELIGION instead of Christianity.

Pomp and circumstance, church as a fashion parade, gold, silver and candles, fancy stained glass, lavish buildings, men dressed up in fancy silk gowns and lace, with "wide borders", liturgy "queens", all style and no substance.

Here is what is wrong with ritualism.

1. It draws peoples focus to THINGS--objects, music, pretty things, rather then to God.
Idolatry is often its outcome.

2. Downgrades preaching and Biblical exposition.

3. Puts the tradition of men above Gods commandments. {Purgatory is an example of one of those traditions of men}

4. Gets more and more elaborate as time goes on, providing even mroe distance and change from true worship as shown in the book of Acts.

5. Gets people to believe that ceremonies and rituals will save them.

6. Fogs out the true gospel.
[/quote]

"Thou shalt distort intent and human psychology to thine own purposes, finding merit only in thine own rituals and denying that thine activities possesseth any ritualism, in spite of thine own Sunday ritual. Thous shalt continuith to speweth forth generalizations borne of thine asinine ignorance and predjudices, wihout regard to the truth known to thine enemies, whom thou hast made no effort to speak to in any language but thine own grotesque pidgin." Book of Idiotonomy Chapter 4

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Budge' post='1055129' date='Sep 1 2006, 12:43 PM']
Thank you FB...

Many here are upset that I am posting against ritualism. Religious Theatre keeps people addicted to RELIGION instead of Christianity.

Pomp and circumstance, church as a fashion parade, gold, silver and candles, fancy stained glass, lavish buildings, men dressed up in fancy silk gowns and lace, with "wide borders", liturgy "queens", all style and no substance.

Here is what is wrong with ritualism.

1. It draws peoples focus to THINGS--objects, music, pretty things, rather then to God.
Idolatry is often its outcome.

2. Downgrades preaching and Biblical exposition.

3. Puts the tradition of men above Gods commandments. {Purgatory is an example of one of those traditions of men}

4. Gets more and more elaborate as time goes on, providing even mroe distance and change from true worship as shown in the book of Acts.

5. Gets people to believe that ceremonies and rituals will save them.

6. Fogs out the true gospel.
[/quote]


As Winchester has once again, with sharp humor pointed out this is entirely asinine as are all your posts. They are a waste of time to read and to respond to because you have yet to offer an original thought (I'd even take your own thought rather than regurgitated drivel).

1. No it does not. Idolatry is never the outcome. Nice way to ignore my previous post where I called on you to develop your thought. Repeating non-sense does not make you a good Christian.

2. In what way.

3. Again, mindless statements that mean nothing. Purgatory is not a "tradition of man" but a tradition from the Apostles, whom they told us to hold fast to in Thessalonians, and a development of doctrine through biblical study.

4. Rather, it is the same worship of the early Church. Have you even read any early letters outside of the canon which offers greater perspective? If you haven't you are doing your non-Catholic tradition a grave disservice. Start with the Letters from Clement and Ignatius to make it easy on yourself. Read Acts 1:42 - And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. Which is exactly what Catholics do.

5. Anti-Catholic hogwash.

6. Anti-Catholic hogwash.

[Budge]

[quote]5. Gets people to believe that ceremonies and rituals will save them.
[/quote]

[quote]5. Anti-Catholic hogwash. [/quote]
[size=5]

CCC 1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. [/size]

[kenrockthefirst]

[i]It draws peoples focus to THINGS--objects, music, pretty things, rather then to God.[/i]

Look, Budge, I dunno what flavor of Christianity you are but I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt as far as the evangelical, born again thing goes, and I can tell you that all the "born again"-type churches have done is replace one ritual with another: poppy / rocky music, light shows, sound effects, swaying, tongues, grape juice, altar calls, etc. How is your run of the mill "megachurch" more effective at drawing anyone unto God than St. Mary's down the street?

[i]Downgrades preaching and Biblical exposition.[/i]

Right. And non-Catholic biblical exposition has been so sound. David Koresh, anyone? Jimmy Swaggart? James Bakker? Jim Jones?

[i]Puts the tradition of men above Gods commandments. {Purgatory is an example of one of those traditions of men}[/i]

Yeah, there's no biblical basis for Purgatory. Wait, yes there is. But on that point, this argument is based on the sola scripture approach to faith, which isn't accepted as valid from the Catholic perspective, so you can't even use it as a valid starting point.

[i]Gets more and more elaborate as time goes on, providing even mroe distance and change from true worship as shown in the book of Acts.[/i]

In what way does it get more and more elaborate? Indeed, what's great about the mass is its directness, its replicability.

[i]Gets people to believe that ceremonies and rituals will save them. [/i]

Quite frankly, a baseless assumption on your part.

[i]Fogs out the true gospel.[/i]

See answer re "biblical exposition" above.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1055129' date='Sep 1 2006, 09:43 AM']
4. Gets more and more elaborate as time goes on, providing even mroe distance and change from true worship as shown in the book of Acts.
[/quote]

But in Acts, worship on the Lord's Day was "prayers and the breaking of the bread", i.e., Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Catholic Mass maintains that, so if anything, it is the [b]Catholic[/b] worship that follows the true woship in Acts!

[Budge]

[quote]

But in Acts, worship on the Lord's Day was "prayers and the breaking of the bread", i.e., Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Catholic Mass maintains that, so if anything, it is the Catholic worship that follows the true woship in Acts![/quote]

No the Catholic worship is far removed from the book of Acts.

I dont recall anyone in the book of Acts breaking a piece of a loaf of bread, blessing it and then getting on their knees to worship it.

I dont recall anyone taking a piece of bread and parading it around to be worshipped in the book of Acts.

[img]http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/images/pea_ot4.jpg[/img]

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1054829' date='Aug 31 2006, 07:02 PM']
Where is this quote taken from, and why should we pay attention to or care about this particular person's opinion?

It just sounds like your standard ignorant protestant rant against the Catholic liturgy.
[/quote]

O_o