This Verse Proves NO Such thing as Co-Redemptrix or Co-Redeemers

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Aside from all the arguing...

Budge, did Mary give Christ His human flesh or not?

[journeyman]

[quote name='Budge' post='1056616' date='Sep 4 2006, 01:59 PM']
<snip>

This is Collyridian heresy renewed.

<snip>
[/quote]

I have trouble keeping up with what I think I believe - and so have not amassed an alphabetized and cross indexed listing of all the heresies . . . for others who might share my ignorance of the precise terms assigned to heresies, I offer the following unverified information from the internet

[quote]
Collyridianism (Mary Worship)

Many anti-Catholics accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary. Of course, there is no basis for this because the Church explicity forbids the worship of anyone other than God. However, back in the early Church, there was group who did in fact worship Mary; they were known as "Collyridians". Their excessive Marian devotion developed into a full blown worship of the Holy Virgin. The heresy lasted about 100 years, existing between 350 and 450 A.D.

The great opponent of the Collyridian sect was Epiphanius, bishop of Salamis and a close colleague of St. Jerome. One of his most outstanding contributions in defeating the Collyridians was his apologetic Panarion (Medicine Box). In his refutation, he addressed both extremes of Marian heresies: Collyridianism (the super-exhaltation of Mary) and Antidicomarianitism (an Arabian movement which demoted and debased Mary's importance).

The Collyridian sect was comprised of mostly women who combined Catholic and Pagan rituals and beliefs and fused them into a new religion - not unlike, it should be observed, many pseudo Catholic nuns who do the same today. Epiphanius considered this blasphemous, writing "certain women there in Arabia have introduced this absurd teaching from Thracia: how they offer up a sacrifice of bread rolls in the Name of the ever-Virgin Mary, and all partake of this bread."

Heresy floats outside of the boundaries of the true faith. One extreme exaggerates a truth; the other extreme denies it. In the case of Collyridianism, we see a perfect example of the former: where there should be a veneration and devotion to Mary, there is an adoration of her instead.

[url="http://www.lrc.edu/rel/blosser/collyridianism.htm"]http://www.lrc.edu/rel/blosser/collyridianism.htm[/url]

[/quote]

Budge, there seems to be a belief that you represent a variety of Christianity, albeit not Catholic. Could you verify that? Some of your points could as easily have come from this site: [url="http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/marytrin.html"]http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Con...l/marytrin.html[/url]

Edited September 5, 2006 by journeyman

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1056959' date='Sep 5 2006, 12:07 AM']
Aside from all the arguing...

Budge, did Mary give Christ His human flesh or not?
[/quote]

Answer the question please.

[size=7] [/size]

[stbernardLT]

Just trying to get them (the anti-catholics) to answer the question.

They are very good at dodging theology.

[Budge]

[quote]Budge, did Mary give Christ His human flesh or not?[/quote]

Only HALF of it



23 Chromosones worth...

Edited September 8, 2006 by Budge

[Fides_et_Ratio]

half?! where did the other half of His physical flesh come from? was it not somehow from Mary's flesh? who was the other human person that donated their physical components?



Either way, at least in a certain sense, you have to agree that Mary played a role (or, "half" a role) in the Salvation of humanity by giving Christ His human body which was the "offering" for Redemption, according to Hebrews (10:10, I think) Edited September 8, 2006 by Fides_et_Ratio

[Budge]

[quote]
Either way, at least in a certain sense, you have to agree that Mary played a role (or, "half" a role) in the Salvation of humanity by giving Christ His human body which was the "offering" for Redemption, according to Hebrews (10:10, I think)[/quote]

Let me ask you a question...

Did your Mom MAKE you...was she in charge of assembling all the parts or did GOD?

Do our Moms give us our human bodies or does God?

We may have great mothers but I think knitting a human body and soul together is more Gods department.

Mary plays no role in salvation, go to the very first part of this thread, ponder the scripture and reflect on it.

[Specter]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058990' date='Sep 8 2006, 07:31 AM']
Let me ask you a question...

Did your Mom MAKE you...was she in charge of assembling all the parts or did GOD?

Do our Moms give us our human bodies or does God?
[/quote]
There's a very simple answer to these questions: Yes.

It's very simple biology. We are made up of the cells created from both of our parents PLUS the infusing the soul. God creates us (the soul) and our parents create us (the body), and combined, we are.

And just to quote a friend of mine on this issue: "Jesus loved His mommy so much that He's tickled pink when we love her too."

Edited September 8, 2006 by Specter

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058990' date='Sep 8 2006, 07:31 AM']
Let me ask you a question...

Did your Mom MAKE you...was [b]she in charge of assembling all the parts[/b] or did GOD?

Do our Moms give us our human bodies or does God?

We may have great mothers but I think knitting a human body and soul together is more Gods department.

Mary plays no role in salvation, go to the very first part of this thread, ponder the scripture and reflect on it.
[/quote]
Budge, even if you deny biology (or various aspects of it)... you just admitted the beginning of Mary's role... she was "in charge of assembling all the parts" of Jesus' human flesh. And once that flesh was born she was in charge of nursing and caring and teaching that baby boy... loving Him as her Son. That's a huge role. Don't underestimate the role of motherhood.

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='Budge' post='1058990' date='Sep 8 2006, 08:31 AM']
Let me ask you a question...

Did your Mom MAKE you...was she in charge of assembling all the parts or did GOD?

Do our Moms give us our human bodies or does God?

We may have great mothers but I think knitting a human body and soul together is more Gods department.

Mary plays no role in salvation, go to the very first part of this thread, ponder the scripture and reflect on it.
[/quote]

If a guy in a assembly line assembles all the metal to make a car. Is not the metal still part of the car, or is the only part of the process that matters the assembly.. Just because God puts it together doesn't exclude every other part of the process. God created biology and implemented the process, but the parts and people he implemented are still part of the process. He created Mary and her egg but guess what, she and her egg (Jesus) are still part of the process. The car still contains the metal.

As far as the scripture goes. you have a bad interpretation my friend.

The New American Bible: "One cannot redeem oneself"
The church agrees with this, but can one take part in the redemption of oneself? Well they do have to say yes to Christ.(alter call, baptism, comfirmation, etc.) Just as Mary said yes. Did they redeem man or themselves? no. Did they take part in that redemption? definitely, or it He wouldn't be their "PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR". Mary simply said yes and took part in redemption. Just as you took part in your own redemption Budge, by agreeing to it. Now remember Mary's part was on a much larger skill because agin she gave Jesus his flesh.

As far as your (bad) translation goes. It first off says no man. This can not be taken literal. Because Jesus was God made MAN. Therefore, there is already a different view from the psalmist on how redemption will come about. Also he speaks about the act of redeeming not the event and process of redemption. Jesus' redeeming act was the crucifixion, Amen. No one died on the cross but Him. But just as in your own life, redemption is a two way street, God and Man. Those who do not accept this act are not redeemed; therefore the process of redemption, not the act, can have others who take part in it. This can clearly be seen in infant baptism, when a parent accepts Christ for the child, in a way the child is being redeemed in part, because of their act. Later at Confirmation, the child CONFIRMS their part in their own redemption and accept Christ.

The pastor or priest who leads the person in baptism or to the altar call also plays a part in the process of redemption, but not the redeeming act. If they didn't lead that person to that point they may have never been redeemed. The scripture you posted is correct in saying that no man (besides Jesus) can redeem, but others can definitely be involved in the redemtion process.

LIKE MARY. She said yes, gave Jesus her flesh, nursed him,raised Him, followed Him, and watched him die. She was definitely part of the process that not only gave her a place in heaven, but redeemed all man; therefore she can be called Co-redemptrix. She didn't die on the cross. but she brought it into the world.

To say that God is the only one involved in redeeming man would deny the church, and deny the work of the Holy Spirit we call evangelization.

[stbernardLT]

So budge, can others play a part in the process of redemption. Or did you just have a revelation of the truth and made that decision all on your own, without anyone sharing the good news. I am assuming that you did accept Christ already, and have been born again.

[Lounge Daddy]

THIS IS AN AWESOME THREAD
Wonderful topic, and healthy discussion. Awesome job for every one, including Budge for the questions.

As for me: Mary is the Mother Of God
- Jesus is God
- Mary gave birth to Him


This adds a tremendous amount to think about regarding the Blessed Sacrament, doesn’t it?
There is serious food for deep contemplation contained in this, and every area of Catholicism.

[Budge]

[font="Arial Black"][size=4]Isa 43:11 I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.[/size][/font]

Does Mary save or play a role in Salvation?

NO!
[size=4][font="Arial Black"]
Hsa 13:4 ¶ Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: [u]for [there is] no saviour beside me[/u].[/font][/size]

Guess that puts those claims about Mary being WITH the Redeemer--Co-Redemptrix down as totally false!

[homeschoolmom]

I tell my kids that God made them out of Chicken McNuggets.

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='Budge' post='1059199' date='Sep 8 2006, 05:24 PM']
[font="Arial Black"][size=4]Isa 43:11 I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.[/size][/font]

Does Mary save or play a role in Salvation?

NO!
[size=4][font="Arial Black"]
Hsa 13:4 ¶ Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: [u]for [there is] no saviour beside me[/u].[/font][/size]

Guess that puts those claims about Mary being WITH the Redeemer--Co-Redemptrix down as totally false!
[/quote]

Who said Mary was God? Or even better who said she was our Savior. Learn the difference between the redeeming act of the cross and the process by which one is redeemed. Mary didn't die on the cross but she was part of the process. Gees, I might have to take a tylenol.

See you'll tomorrow. I'm going hang out with our teens at our High School football game.

Edited September 8, 2006 by stbernardLT

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Budge' post='1059199' date='Sep 8 2006, 04:24 PM']
[font="Arial Black"][size=4]Isa 43:11 I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.[/size][/font]

Does Mary save or play a role in Salvation?

NO!
[size=4][font="Arial Black"]
Hsa 13:4 ¶ Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: [u]for [there is] no saviour beside me[/u].[/font][/size]

Guess that puts those claims about Mary being WITH the Redeemer--Co-Redemptrix down as totally false!
[/quote]
Yes, Mary plays a role in our Salvation... and you already admitted it the moment you said she "was in charge of assembling all the parts" of Jesus' human body.. the offering of Redemption. No taking it back now unless you want to claim biology is false.

Mary is not THE Savior she is the woman WITH the Savior. There is a grand difference which I am sure you can see. WITH is not the same as THE.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1059199' date='Sep 8 2006, 04:24 PM']
Does Mary save or play a role in Salvation?

NO!
[/quote]

So giving birth to Salvation, plays no role in salvation? Please explain, logically explain. That will be quite hard will it not? Since you say mary had no role salvation, but she as a fact give birth to Salvation, and was there when Salvation hug on the Cross.

[Aloysius]

1 Corinthians 9:22
"To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means [b]save[/b] some."

St. Paul was a co-savior insofar as he brought others to Christ. Mary is a co-savior insofar as the sword which peirced her soul brought so many hearts to light and brought them to Christ

"And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed-- and a sword will pierce even your own soul--to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed."

Only Jesus Himself actually saves... but St. Paul had no problem saying that he saved people by bringing them to Jesus and we Catholics have no problem saying that Mary, who was prophecied to reveal many hearts into the light of God, also saves by bringing people to Jesus.

if you bring someone to the savior, you have in some sense "saved" them even if they are actually saved by the Savior himself.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

wow, Budge, now that's 2 strikes for St. Paul... first the "unknown god" altar, and now he's a co-saver! are you going to edit your Bible now?

good job, Al.

[Budge]

I didnt see PAUL having Unknown god joint prayer sessions.

He told them who God really was.


[quote][u]St. Paul was a co-savior[/u] insofar as he brought others to Christ. [u]Mary is a co-savior [/u]insofar as the sword which peirced her soul brought so many hearts to light and brought them to Christ[/quote]

Sorry Im sticking with God on this one, not the false teachings of the Catholic Church.

[b]Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a [u]Saviour; there is none beside me[/u][/b]

By the way when something is repeated in the Bible its pretty important.