Would U Pray With A Muslim...

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1057694' date='Sep 6 2006, 09:12 AM']

{Im not a Jehovah Witness--just specificing that Allah of Islam is NOT the same god as the ONE TRUE GOD of the Bible}

[/quote]


Actually, he is the same God. Muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the god of Abraham, our common father in faith.

Now that said...our understanding of who God is, what he is, and how to serve him differs, sometimes in radical ways.

Call him God, call him Jehovah, call him Yahweh or YHWH...God is still God, no matter what we call him or what limits/images/boundaries we try to impose upon him.

Your statement would be more accurate if you changed it thusly: "Muslims' view of Allah of Islam is NOT the same as Christians' view of god as the ONE TRUE GOD of the Bible"

Yours in Christ,

[Budge]

[quote]
Actually, he is the same God. Muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the god of Abraham, our common father in faith.[/quote]

Muslims do not worship the same god.

You do know that since the Koran DIRECTLY denies Jesus Christ in Surah 4...

that by all scriptural tests it is antichrist.

I guess some of you can start going to mosques now...

[img]http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/055_popekissesKoran.jpg[/img]


[quote]God's name is Jehovah, Holy Mother Church teaches this as well.
[/quote]

Not anymore considering Nostra Aetate...
[quote]

Um..about 1.1 billion peeps, at last count.[/quote]

Read what the Bible says about the broad way.

[Groo the Wanderer]

AHA! You fell into my trap! *sinister music here*

No seriously, I knew you would quote me out of context...you left out the rest of the explanation and only quoted the opening phrase.

But then, fundys/nondoms (not a slam, just a grouping) tend to do that a lot...especially with Sacred Scripture.


But...I still lub you! :

[Budge]

There is no explanation nor excuse, nor context, to worship the god of a false religion.

That is basic Christianity 101, devotion to God alone.

[Era Might]

Yes, as long as the prayer was such that it wasn't specifically Muslim. We worship the same God, of course, but we do not share the same faith in Muhammed. A common prayer couldn't betray that difference.

[quote]We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: "We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection" (Insegnamenti, VIII/2, [1985], p. 497). The patrimony of revealed texts in the Bible speaks unanimously of the oneness of God. Jesus himself reaffirms it, making Israel's profession his own: "The Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Mk 12:29; cf. Dt 6:4-5). This oneness is also affirmed in the words of praise that spring from the heart of the Apostle Paul: "To the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen'"(1 Tm 1:17).

--Pope John Paul II

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MUSLM.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MUSLM.HTM[/url][/quote]

[Budge]

[quote]We worship the same God, of course, but we do not share the same faith in Muhammed. [u]A common prayer couldn't betray that difference.[/u]
[/quote]

Yes it would.

[Eutychus]

Which COMMON PRAYER GROUP DID PAUL OR PETER OR JAMES "engage in joint prayers WITH?"

Ba'al?

Asherath?

Diana?

Zeus?

Ju-Peter?

Mithra?

Just wondering...just wondering....

[i]{ we must be using different bibles, MINE tells me that the apostles preached JESUS to the pagans, and told them they MUST become Christians if they were to escape the wrath of God. Yours seems to say "pagans are really Roman Catholics, they just have the NAME of God confused." }[/i]

[Budge]

Considering 2/3rds of the folks here would pray to Allah [of Islam]

Maybe they could join up with this gal...

[quote]Former Catholic student leads Islamic Society

September 02, 2006 - 9:08 am
By: Joe Pavia

The 42nd annual convention of the Islamic Society of North America gets underway this weekend in Rosemont Illinois.

Ingrid Mattson who heads up the Society of North America has criticized U.S. President George W. Bush for comments he made about "Islamic Facism". Mattson, whose a native of Kitchener, says labelling terrorism as 'Islamic' only adds to the misunderstanding of Islam. She says terrorists misuse Islamic concepts which she rejects.
Mattson whose originally from Kitchener and a graduate from St. Mary's High School is the first woman to be elected President of the organization. A move some say signals a change in attitude toward women in the Muslim faith. While other cynics call it a conspiracy on the part of the organization to put up a 'front woman' as a symbolic gesture.
Mattson converted to Islam from Catholicism and studied Islamic law at Hartford Seminary in Connecticut and philosophy at the University of Waterloo in the 1980's.
She tells 570 News she fell from the Catholic faith while in high school and became interested in Islam during a job out west in the late 80's.

The group was formed in 1963 The Islamic Society of North America is an umbrella group that represents Muslim associations for youth, college students, engineers and others, and also provides support to Muslim chaplains and North American mosques. Its annual meeting regularly draws more than 30,000 people.

The president serves a two-year term, leading the society's committees and executive boards that set policy through consultation with its members.[/quote]

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1057679' date='Sep 6 2006, 08:30 AM']
I wonder what the Catholic Church really teaches about this specifically.
Can any of you reference the Catechism or Canon law in regards to praying with Muslims.
I would think there would be circumstances it would be good and circumstances it would be bad according to Catholic Church theology.
People have only expressed their opinion. Citing singular references from Pope's or Bishop's letters aren't usually conclusive as they usually are addressing a particular circumstance.
[/quote]


Yep. I'll put some stuff up when I get back from class.

Edit: I agree with Budge on this so far. I would be interested in hearing the rational for why we worship the same God as the Muslims, and the Jews for that matter. Besides the fact that the new catechism says so. Thanks . I won't argue against it as that seems to be bad policy, I just want to know why the Vatican is teaching this now.

Edited September 6, 2006 by goldenchild17

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1057726' date='Sep 6 2006, 10:14 AM']
There is no explanation nor excuse, nor context, to worship the god of a false religion.

That is basic Christianity 101, devotion to God alone.
[/quote]


I'm not sure why you don;t get it...is it because you do not understand, or that you refuse to?

1. we are ALL children of the same God, whether we all believe in Him or not, and whether we all believe in Him the same way or not. To deny this is to deny God as the Creator.
2. God loves ALL of his children, whether we all believe in Him or not, and whether we all believe in Him the same way or not. Again, to deny this is to deny God as the Creator.
3. all human fathers want thier children to get along, even if they have different beliefs, lack of beliefs, or whatever their differences are. THE Father desires the same for his children, to an even greater degree.

now pay attention here, unless you are merely refusing to understand, in which case, go play a video game or something and don't waster yer time reading further...

4. praying WITH someone is NOT the same as PRAYING TO THE SAME deity/god/power/whatever
5. praying WITH someone does NOT imply or prove that they share the same belief system/religion, it can simply be the agreement on a thing

case in point...
A Catholic, a Protestant, a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Buddhist, and an Indian (feathers, not dots) can all be united in a prayer for peace. Does this mean they share the same faith? NO. Does this mean they have the same belief in who God is? NO. Do they pray to the same God? yes...in a way.

The Catholic prays to God in his understanding of the Holy Trinity, God the father, God the Son, Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit. A Protestant does as well, but may have different understandings (since there are over 25k prot denominations). The Jew prays to God the Father, is still waiting for God the Son to come, and does not know of God the Holy Spirit except in OT references. The Muslim prays to God as Allah (ocne again very different depending on the sect of Islam to whoch he adheres). The Hindu prays to whichever of his 10k gods is most appropriate at the time, while understanding they are all just manifestations of thier one chief god, Brahman. The Buddhist prays to the entirety of creation. The Indian prays to the Great Spirit.

Now, while all of them have different ideas of who God is, the fact remains that God is God. All of them pray to whatever they deem the 'Supreme Being', in whatever form they percieve him. Thusly, all are in actuality praying to the true God, whether they perceive and/or acknowledge this or not.

As Christians, we have the full revelation of who God is, given to us by his Son, Jesus Christ. We do not yet fully comprehend the Mysteries in this, but we accept them through faith, all the while attempting to more fully understand our Creator. As Catholics, we accept the full deposit of faith given to us by God through both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture (which was created out of Sacred tradition). We are truly blessed!

So...can one pray WITH a Muslim and remain true to God, his Church, and one's own faith? Of course. Does praying with a Muslim mean you are praying to his perception of God as Allah? Of course not.

To say so is tantamount to saying Christ committed sin when he dared to eat with the tax collectors and was so presumtuous as to speak wto a woman in public

Careful with your assertions, Budge...your predjudice comes close to earning you the title of Pharisee...

Lub ya tho!

[Anomaly]

I would pray with a muslim or a hindu or a buhdist or a jehovah witness or an american indian or a pagan if we were praying for the same thing.
I believe in One God to the best of my understanding and would give the benefit of the doubt to the other people praying. The God I perceive hears all prayers and judges them correctly.
But that's just me, a heretic, an infidel, an unbeliever by many human definitions.

[jswranch]

[quote name='Budge' post='1057726' date='Sep 6 2006, 09:14 AM']
There is no explanation nor excuse, nor context, to worship the god of a false religion.

That is basic Christianity 101, devotion to God alone.
[/quote]
Budge,
I think the area where you misunderstand is that (a) praying with non-christians for a specific cause compatible with Christianity is not the same as (b) praying the prayers of the Pagan to the Pagan God(s). You are correct in that getting (b) wrong is Basic Christianity 101. However, (a) praying with Muslims that God the Creator works to stop terrorism and killing of innocent civilians is not the same as (b) performing the Wiccan rite of Oak Tree Blessing that the Spirits of the Woodland forest would help your marriage.

Assisi is (a) not (b). (B) would break the commandment.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1057844' date='Sep 6 2006, 01:00 PM']I would pray with a muslim or a hindu or a buhdist or a jehovah witness or an american indian or a pagan if we were praying for the same thing.
I believe in One God to the best of my understanding and would give the benefit of the doubt to the other people praying. The God I perceive hears all prayers and judges them correctly.
But that's just me, a heretic, an infidel, an unbeliever by many human definitions.[/quote]
It's incorrect to say that just because someone worships A God, that we worship the same, one, true God.

Muslims, Christians, and Jews all worship the one, true God of Abraham, although only Christians have come to know him as a Trinity of persons, whereas Muslims and Jews only know him as a unity of substance. It is not necessary to know God as a trinity of persons in order to worship him, because this is a supernatural truth and cannot be known by reason alone. It can be known by reason alone that God is one, eternal, invisible and almighty. Muslims and Jews worship this God who reveals himself through reason, and so we worship the same God, the only God, as Pope John Paul points out above. Muslims and Jews also acknowledge this God historically as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

However, if someone's conception of God does not conform to what can be known by reason, then they are not worshipping the one, true God. That doesn't mean God can't hear their prayers, but the intended object of their prayer and worship is false and incorrect. Thus, it would be erroneous to pray WITH them.

It would not be erroneous to pray with a non-Christian who did know the one, true God, with one caveat that I mentioned above, the common prayer can't betray the respective and unique faiths of each participant. Pope Benedict references the Pater Noster as a good guide in any potential common prayer with non-Christians who share our faith in the one, true God.

[MIKolbe]

i would pray with him for his conversion.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1057855' date='Sep 6 2006, 12:22 PM']
It's incorrect to say that just because someone worships A God, that we worship the same, one, true God.

Muslims, Christians, and Jews all worship the one, true God of Abraham, although only Christians have come to know him as a Trinity of persons, whereas Muslims and Jews only know him as a unity of substance. It is not necessary to know God as a trinity of persons in order to worship him, because this is a supernatural truth and cannot be known by reason alone. It can be known by reason alone that God is one, eternal, invisible and almighty. Muslims and Jews worship this God who reveals himself through reason, and so we worship the same God, the only God, as Pope John Paul points out above. Muslims and Jews also acknowledge this God historically as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

However, if someone's conception of God does not conform to what can be known by reason, then they are not worshipping the one, true God. That doesn't mean God can't hear their prayers, but the intended object of their prayer and worship is false and incorrect. Thus, it would be erroneous to pray WITH them.

It would not be erroneous to pray with a non-Christian who did know the one, true God, with one caveat that I mentioned above, the common prayer can't betray the respective and unique faiths of each participant. Pope Benedict references the Pater Noster as a good guide in any potential common prayer with non-Christians who share our faith in the one, true God.
[/quote]Incorrect in your version of the 'catholic' perception, perhaps. I personally don't subscribe to that and would pray with anyone, of any faith, if we were praying for the same thing. If we were praying for the same thing, then assumedly, we would be praying for something Good and all Good comes from God. If you think you have to consult a Canon Lawyer to figure out if you can ask for something Good with someone of a different faith, then that is a 'belief system' I chose to not participate in.

It is nice to see something that Budge, Euty, goldenchild, and other 'christians' and 'catholics' have in common.

Edited September 6, 2006 by Anomaly

[Era Might]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1057865' date='Sep 6 2006, 01:42 PM']Incorrect in your version of the 'catholic' perception, perhaps/[/quote]
Yes, that is the Catholic understanding of the one, true God. That is all I can offer.

[quote]Is it possible to pray jointly with members of other religions, whether monotheist, polytheist, pantheist or transcendental? Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger responds to this question in his latest book.

"A distinction must be made between multireligious and interreligious prayer," the cardinal says in "Fede, verità, tolleranza -- Il cristianesimo e le religioni del mondo" (Faith, Truth, Tolerance -- Christianity and the World Religions), released by Cantagalli Publishers.

The prayers for peace in Assisi, called by John Paul II, are multireligious, as all participants pray at the same time but in different places.

In these cases, the participants "know that their way of understanding the divinity and, therefore, their way of addressing it, is so different that a common prayer would be a fiction, it would not be true," writes Cardinal Ratzinger, the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

On the contrary, in interreligious prayers, people of diverse religious traditions pray together, he explains.

"Is it possible to do so in a truthful and honest way?" the author asks. He responds by saying that he seriously doubts it.

If such interreligious prayers are organized, however, they require three conditions, Cardinal Ratzinger stresses.

First, he says, it must be made clear that one is praying to the one, personal God; second, it must be established that what is being prayed for is not in contradiction to the Our Father; and third, it must be stressed that for Christians Jesus Christ is the sole redeemer of all people.

-[url="http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=41665"][u]Source[/u][/url]-[/quote]

[MIKolbe]

[i]The question here is, where do we draw the line between holding false beliefs about the true God and worshipping another God entirely? For example, almost all Protestants and Catholics will agree that we worship the same God. Yet, we understand so central an attribute of God as His justice quite differently. Catholics believe that God is prevented by His justice from punishing an innocent man for the crimes of another. On the other hand, God punishing an innocent man for the crimes of others is the cornerstone of the theory of the atonement which most conservative Protestants hold: penal substitution. There are some Protestants (e.g. Oneness Pentecostals) who believe that Jesus is God and the Bible is the word of God, but don't believe in the Trinity. Do we worship a different God than them? Again, Jews don't believe in the Trinity. But how many Jews who convert to Christianity see themselves as abandoning the worship of a false God in favor of the true God? Rather, they see themselves as accepting the fullness of the revelation of the God they already knew.
[/i]

found this on the net...maybe it can prove useful.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

y Catechism was ruined last night in a rain (I left my window down ) so I can not give the exact quote or location, however I do no that it says something about the Muslims being among the first of those who do not follow Christ or something like that. Taking that into account along with,

1) JPII prayed with Muslims, and even kissed the Quran,
2) St. Theresa of Calcutta often prayed withy dieing people of different faiths.
3) Muslims worship the God of Abraham, so they worship the same God as the Jews, and Christians, it is their understanding about the fullness of God that differs. hrist reveals God, and if you do not accept him then you miss a HUGE part of the reality that is God
4) Just because Muslims call God Allah does not mean it is a different God. Allah is the Arabic word for GOD. Christians were using this word long before Muhammed even was a twinkle in his father's eye.

With all of the above taken together I have no problem praying with a muslim. In fact I have at times gone to the mosque after mass and prayed the Rosary as they said their prayers alongside me. There are things which divide us, however I think it is important to pray with them, and let our silent prayer be that God will bring them to the fullness of HIS truth.

[Eutychus]

[quote] Edit: I agree with Budge on this so far. I would be interested in hearing the rational for why we worship the same God as the Muslims, and the Jews for that matter. Besides the fact that the new catechism says so. Thanks smile.gif. I won't argue against it as that seems to be bad policy,[u] I just want to know why the Vatican is teaching this now.[/u][/quote]

Simple. YOU as a Roman Catholic cannot say what I can say { I notice we get more room in this area }...

That is called HERESY, plain and simple. That is why.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1057989' date='Sep 6 2006, 04:24 PM']
Simple. YOU as a Roman Catholic cannot say what I can say { I notice we get more room in this area }...

That is called HERESY, plain and simple. That is why.
[/quote]
I know my belief is heresy according to the Vatican. I don't really care as I am not of that religion. Makes no difference to me. I just want to know why they do believe this. That's all.