Question For Anti-catholics

[Akalyte]

So, you attack the idea of the Pope being infallible, but you accept the idea, that you are led by the Holy spirit. Obviously there is something contradictory here. You take a bible (something the Catholic church put together and gave the world) and come to the conclusion that you are right about your interpretations but the Church which has existed since the 1st century is wrong. You will not give the Catholic church any credit whatsoever, because your right and she is wrong, therefore she is of the devil.

This same way of thinking was passed on into the ugly stepchild of protestantism "liberalism". So now my question to budge, eutychus and other anti-catholic, dissenters, deformers and schismatics. Are you infallible? Are you the one and only authoritve christian? In other words, are you super popes? I dont wont conspiracy theories and pictures from jack chick sites either. Just tell us all, are you infallible? Was the church built on you alone? Did christ give you the Keys alone?

Let me just remind you that everyone here sees your deadly sin of pride.

[Eutychus]

Wow.

Congratulations. I believe that post had MORE STRAWMEN erected within it than any other post I have ever seen. I can find at least six, and there may even be more alluded to.

You have a talent there, worthy of praise.

Rather than defending YOUR STAWMEN, I will just retire with grace to allow you to have a good time attacking your own creations.

[img]http://www.iaw.on.ca/~ppchurch/strawman.gif[/img]

[url="http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html"]IN CASE YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT A STRAWMAN ARGUEMENT IS[/url]

Edited September 6, 2006 by Eutychus

[Mateo el Feo]

Quoting the Wiki [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman"](link)[/url][quote]A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position[/quote]If you've been repeatedly misrepresented, I'm having trouble finding a single place where such a misrepresentation has been made.

Or, maybe you don't understand what a strawman argument is.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1057696' date='Sep 6 2006, 09:13 AM']
Quoting the Wiki [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman"](link)[/url]If you've been repeatedly misrepresented, I'm having trouble finding a single place where such a misrepresentation has been made.

Or, maybe you don't understand what a strawman argument is.
[/quote]


Note that he/she declined to point out what your alleged strawmen were/are...but then again, that's the modus operendi of catholic-bashers....

We pray for them!

[Eutychus]

[quote]So now my question to budge, eutychus and other anti-catholic, dissenters, deformers and schismatics. Are you infallible? [/quote]

This ONE sentence, contains FOUR. Not to mention the rest of the rant.

[Mateo el Feo]

These are four groups that he was addressing. Although they are overlapping groups, he's not attributing [i]all[/i] of the labels to you.

For example, I don't think you could accuse him of misrepresenting you as a schismatic (e.g. SSPX, etc). In the case of the label "deformer", I think he's referring to Reformed Protestants, which you probably have your own disagreements with.

On the other hand, you certainly fall into the labels of anti-Catholic and a dissenter. Are those misrepresentations or strawmen?

Still zero misrepresentations. Waiting for six to be identified.

[KnightofChrist]

Perhaps seeing the "strawman" is just a good excuse to dodge the subject, and questions. So taking the straw out, could you answer the questions?

You disagree that the Pope is infallible, and Holy Mother Church is lead by the Holy Spirit ,correct?

But do you believe that you are lead by the Holy Spirit?

Why can you not give Holy Mother Church any credit on phatmass, for say, obeying God and writing down, and putting together The Holy Bible?

Can you agree with anything that Holy Mother Church teaches about Christ? Anything?

Do you have authorty from God, are you infallibile in your teachings or could you be wrong?

And if you can show you have authorty from God, why cant that authorty also apply to Holy Mother Church, or any Catholic.

Edited September 6, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[Eutychus]

[quote]On the other hand, you certainly fall into the [u]labels of anti-Catholic [/u]and a [u]dissenter[/u]. Are those misrepresentations or strawmen? [/quote]

Yes, they are.

I can reverse the TACTIC, and say, YOU are Anti-Evangelial/Pentecostal, and YOU are a dissenter from what the Apostles DID and TAUGHT holding to a NEW gospel, revealed via continuing revelation and historical creeping revisionism.

Now, are they "true?"

Perhaps, perhaps NOT.

Neither one is accurate, even if fundamentally allusions to deeper truths.

STRAWMEN seem to be the favorite tactic of the semi-skilled-budding-online-catholic-wannabe-apologist.

[KnightofChrist]

Ok, ok, but could you please answer my questions, Sir?

[Eutychus]

[quote]But do you believe that you are lead by the Holy Spirit? [/quote]

Absolutely!

{ now the REAL question is....do I understand Him, or Want to follow? }

[quote]Joh 14:26

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, [b][u]he shall teach you all things,[/u] and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.[/b][/quote]

Notice who is the "teacher" here. Not some old guys hiding in a city state in Rome. But rather God HIMSELF, in the person of the Holy Spirit.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1057739' date='Sep 6 2006, 09:43 AM']
Absolutely!

{ now the REAL question is....do I understand Him, or Want to follow? }[/quote]

Ok thats one answer, to one question, could you answer anymore? Or is that impossiable? I believe in you, you can do it.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1057739' date='Sep 6 2006, 09:43 AM']
Notice who is the "teacher" here. Not some old guys hiding in a city state in Rome. But rather God HIMSELF, in the person of the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

Yet another nice strawman argument.

[Aloysius]

when one encounters a logical fallacy, one does not merely point it out and run away from the topic at hand. one points out which things do not represent his position, then addresses the topic from his clarified position. argument 101 teaches you what logical fallacies are not so you can point them out and run away, but so that you can recognize them and attack them with greater strength. all you had to do was say "I do not consider myself anti-Catholic any more than you consider yourself anti-evangelical, this is my actual position..."

but you don't seem to have the capability to seperate yourself and your emotions from the flow of a logical dialogue. really quite unfortunate.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1057761' date='Sep 6 2006, 11:19 AM']
when one encounters a logical fallacy, one does not merely point it out and run away from the topic at hand. one points out which things do not represent his position, then addresses the topic from his clarified position. argument 101 teaches you what logical fallacies are not so you can point them out and run away, but so that you can recognize them and attack them with greater strength. all you had to do was say "I do not consider myself anti-Catholic any more than you consider yourself anti-evangelical, this is my actual position..."

but you don't seem to have the capability to seperate yourself and your emotions from the flow of a logical dialogue. really quite unfortunate.
[/quote]

YES

Can we please restore some debate to the debate table? There is no debate here, only claims followed by ad hominens

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1057730' date='Sep 6 2006, 11:23 AM']Yes, they are.

I can reverse the TACTIC, and say, YOU are Anti-Evangelial/Pentecostal, and YOU are a dissenter from what the Apostles DID and TAUGHT holding to a NEW gospel, revealed via continuing revelation and historical creeping revisionism.

Now, are they "true?"[/quote]If call me an anti-Evangelical/Pentecostal, I would have to concede that I am against the pecular beliefs of American Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism. Maybe we need to add the caveat that you hate Catholic teachings and love Catholics, because you want to "save" us. You just need to work a little harder on the "love" part. LOL.

Considering your mean-spirited attitude toward all things Catholic, and your propensity to namecall and use slurs against Catholics, I think that the term anti-Catholic is quite apropriate for you.

Regarding the term "dissenter", you're making an apple-to-oranges comparison. I think that you would readily admit that you dissent from the teachings of the Catholic Church. On the other hand, I would [i]not[/i] claim to be dissenting from the Apostles and the Gospel.

[quote]STRAWMEN seem to be the favorite tactic of the semi-skilled-budding-online-catholic-wannabe-apologist.[/quote]I'm afraid you've still not correctly identified a strawman. If you tried to stretch your argument a little, you might attempt to claim the fallacy of [i]ad hominem[/i]. But I don't think that even that works here, because the original four labels were primarily meant to identify the group who was being addressed.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1057739' date='Sep 6 2006, 10:43 AM']
Absolutely!

{ now the REAL question is....do I understand Him, or Want to follow? }
Notice who is the "teacher" here. Not some old guys hiding in a city state in Rome. But rather God HIMSELF, in the person of the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

Problem here.

Let us for this argument, assume you are correct that the Holy Spirit leads all into Truth. You are in fact, correct. Where you fall short is in concocting the corrollary to this that your learning from the Holy Spirit is complete and infallible. The Bible nowhere states this false corollary is true. Please show me where it says this, if your edition says so...

Let us proceed logically as well. If it were true that the Holy Spirit leads all men into truth, COMPLETELY and INFALLIBLY, then all men that call on him should know/learn the same thing and hence be in full agreement - the Holy Spirit does not contradict himself. However, history shows this not to be true, evidenced by the fact that there are over 25k Protestant denominations, each claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit into their own 'correct' interpretation of the Bible.

So this leads to one of two conclusions:
1. the Holy Spirit is horribly schizophrenic and likes to play games with Christians regarding doctrine.
2. the Holy Spirit leads all men to the Truth, but no man can get the fullness of revelation himself, even guided by the Holy Spirit.

Hmm. So where do we go for Truth? Look to the Bible and see what it says....
1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is [b]the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth[/b] (from the KJV even, not the NAB...)

VERY CLEARLY - man must go to the Church to know the Truth, even when guided by the Holy Spirit.