Question For Anti-catholics

[Eutychus]

[quote] Problem here.

Let us for this argument, assume you are correct that the Holy Spirit leads all into Truth. You are in fact, correct.[u] Where you fall short is in concocting the corrollary to this that your learning from the Holy Spirit is complete and infallible. [/u]The Bible nowhere states this false corollary is true. Please show me where it says this, if your edition says so...[/quote]

[u][b]YET ONE MORE STRAWMAN.[/b][/u]

Show me where I ever said the HS will cause my understanding to rise to the level of INFALLIBLE. I challenge you.

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1057988' date='Sep 6 2006, 03:21 PM']
[u][b]YET ONE MORE STRAWMAN.[/b][/u]

Show me where I ever said the HS will cause my understanding to rise to the level of INFALLIBLE. I challenge you.


[/quote]

So your interpretations of the Bible are wrong?

[Eutychus]

I have pretty much limited my "interpretations" and tend do so.

Where you CAN take things literally, you should, UNLESS there is a metaphore, or allegory, or similie hiding in the background.

i.e. = "I am the door..." etc.

The "less interpretation needed" normally the closer to what God intended, after all once you leave HIS inspired text, you move into the world of mans ego, mistakes, lack of understanding, and hidden agenda's.

[Aloysius]

man's hidden agendas are much more dangerous when they are hidden under the guise of "reading without any interpretation".

the average christian reading a king james red letter edition bible will inevitably come to a completely different understanding than the first century reader reading the greek or a seventh century man reading the vulgate

[Eutychus]

[quote] the average christian reading a king james red letter edition bible will inevitably come to a completely different understanding than the first century reader reading the greek or a seventh century man reading the vulgate[/quote]

Given that we NOW KNOW more about Judaism, it's role and practice, and prophetic end times role, I would HOPE SO, that the reader had a different understanding than the seventh century POPES had or for that matter, Augustine himself, who muffed up things so badly in his CITY OF GOD traipse down heresy road.

[Aloysius]

ahh yes... because IQ levels have risen so high and people further removed from a time period are generally more likely to know what went on in that time period.

or not.

they actually studied the brain structure imprints left on the skulls of medieval folks and compared them to today: the average man today is much dumber than the average man of the middle ages.

and anthropologists can do nothing but find old writings, old artifacts, and try to peice them together. they like to do something called matching the archaelogical record to traditions with widespread acceptance and temporal longevity in continuity with the communities they are studying in order to determine the truth about ancient events. and that continuity with biblical communities is found in the Catholic Church, and those traditions with temporal longevity are found in Catholic teachings, and that widespread acceptance about things is found among popular pious legends, traditions, and Catholic teachings. And all of this is what they look at to study the meaning of ancient biblical things. And all of this is what proves that you have to follow a continuity of history to find truth.

the City of God is only heresy to zionist "christians" who think they've all the sudden discovered the final culminating fulfillment of the prophecies of revelation when the same thing has continuously been claimed again and again and again. oh but don't worry, the fact that I'm scoffing at it must prove it to be true! a self-sustaining dillusion. the modern nation state of israel is NOT the ancient tribe of israel and it may not necessarily have anything to do with the end times... and only through an interpretation that includes sinister human agendas (which you cannot recognize because you are convinced only your reading and your initial impressions are pure) can you attempt to say that Sacred Scripture must mean that the modern nation state of israel will have a roll in the end times.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1058079' date='Sep 6 2006, 07:33 PM']
Given that we NOW KNOW more about Judaism, it's role and practice, and prophetic end times role, I would HOPE SO, that the reader had a different understanding than the seventh century POPES had or for that matter, Augustine himself, who muffed up things so badly in his CITY OF GOD traipse down heresy road.[/quote]This is a quote to save: "Augustine...muffed up things so badly". Classic. I feel like I'm listening to an "expert" on TBN. LOL.

[MIKolbe]

oh.oh...oh...

do i get to be an expert??????? me me pick me over here me?

[Eutychus]

[quote]This is a quote to save: "Augustine...muffed up things so badly". [/quote]

I suppose that depends on whether you LOVE Augustine, or the Bible.

His views on marriage and sex, for example.

His mistaken views on Jews and Israel, another.

His insistance that the city/state with coercive authority to compel membership and worship, is that what Jesus told us to build, here on earth?

There are others. But then, IF you start with the silly fact that Augustine was the best theologian that ever lived, and build your system around that starting point, naturally, you will disagree.

The oddest part of things, is Luther and Calvin actually called Augustine the real father of the protestant reformation. Of course, one only has to look and see that the Lutherans and Calvinists got MUCH RIGHT, but failed to sever the apronstrings to much of the Roman baggage, such as state churches, infant baptisms, and other mistakes that were introduced as the Roman Empire fell, and the Roman Religious Empire absorbed her customs, pagan rites, and venial ways.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1058515' date='Sep 7 2006, 03:41 PM']
I suppose that depends on whether you LOVE Augustine, or the Bible.

His views on marriage and sex, for example.

[/quote]


whoop whoop

ye have revealed a glaring symptom of yer predjudice and misunderstanding/refusal of the Truth....you think it is a OR question, while most of us think it is an AND answer...

Interstingly enuff, this seems to apply to most of yer agruments.

"do you trust the Bible OR the Church?" "do you love Jesus OR the Pope?"

Simply taint a matter uv OR...Tis a matter of AND...




[quote name='Eutychus' post='1057997' date='Sep 6 2006, 04:29 PM']
I have pretty much limited my "interpretations" and tend do so.

Where you CAN take things literally, you should, UNLESS there is a metaphor, or allegory, or similie hiding in the background.

i.e. = "I am the door..." etc.

The "less interpretation needed" normally the closer to what God intended, after all once you leave HIS inspired text, you move into the world of mans ego, mistakes, lack of understanding, and hidden agenda's.
[/quote]

So in essence, you have declared yourself Pope. YOU get the determine whose interpretations are right or wrong or in between somewhere. YOU get to determine where the writer is supposed to read literally, symbolically, allogorically, or standing-on-ones-headly..

Problem is...so do the rest of our seperated brethren...so in the seperated world, there are at least 25k popes running around, each declaring themselves to have THE correct interpretation of Scripture. What a chaotic thought!

As for showing you where you have asserted this point....I don;t have time to list all of your posts on this forum...the content speaks for itself...CAN I GIT AN AMEN?!

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1058515' date='Sep 7 2006, 04:41 PM']I suppose that depends on whether you LOVE Augustine, or the Bible.[/quote]The old either/or trick. Something like saying, "whether you love the Old Testament, or the New Testament."

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1058515' date='Sep 7 2006, 04:41 PM']His views on marriage and sex, for example.[/quote]Coming from someone who views celibacy as something abnormal and opposed to Christianity, this statement doesn't really mean much.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1058515' date='Sep 7 2006, 04:41 PM']His mistaken views on Jews and Israel, another.[/quote]A quote would be nice, since you have repeatedly made this vague, unsubstantiated claim.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1058515' date='Sep 7 2006, 04:41 PM']His insistance that the city/state with coercive authority to compel membership and worship, is that what Jesus told us to build, here on earth?[/quote]Here's an interesting strawman. It looks like you'd like to paint his view of government in the the worst light, while not using actual quotation from City of God to support your accusation. Be an expert: use actual quotes and cite them (i.e. book, chapter, paragraph, in the case of City of God).

Anyway, in light of Romans chapter 13 ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans13.htm"]link[/url]), it is clear that the New Testament isn't strictly libertarian in it's view of government--not that I think you believe this opposing extreme. One needn't paint extremes. I believe that there is plenty of gray area in-between for Christians to view the role of government; but it doesn't do any good for you to caricature St. Augustine. St. Paul sees the government as a tool for enforcing God's law. If anything, St. Augustine is just following St. Paul's own words.

Interestingly, with only one exception, St. Thomas Aquinas' quotations of St. Augustine ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/209600.htm"]in the Summa Theologica's discussion of human law[/url]) show a position that contrasts your characterization of St. Augustine's views on government. The citations show that St. Augustine sees the limits of human law and authority. Mostly, the "coersive authority of government" is related to natural law, not church membership.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1058515' date='Sep 7 2006, 04:41 PM']There are others. But then, IF you start with the silly fact that Augustine was the best theologian that ever lived, and build your system around that starting point, naturally, you will disagree.[/quote]I never gave any "silly facts" about who the best theologian that ever lived was. In any event, an opinion of who the best theologian is would be more in the realm of subjective opinion, not fact.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1058515' date='Sep 7 2006, 04:41 PM']The oddest part of things, is Luther and Calvin actually called Augustine the real father of the protestant reformation.[/quote]Luther was an Augustinian. This isn't odd for him.

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1058515' date='Sep 7 2006, 04:41 PM']Of course, one only has to look and see that the Lutherans and Calvinists got MUCH RIGHT, but failed to sever the apronstrings to much of the Roman baggage, such as state churches, infant baptisms, and other mistakes that were introduced as the Roman Empire fell, and the Roman Religious Empire absorbed her customs, pagan rites, and venial ways.[/quote]Looks like they got "MUCH WRONG." I wonder if they got enough wrong, in your book, to be considered heretics.